Shamima Begum...
Discussion
Starfighter said:
Correct. Why would they?
Do we want to be a state that will revoke a citizens status because they are entitled to citizenship of another state.
???Do we want to be a state that will revoke a citizens status because they are entitled to citizenship of another state.
Because she's a terrorist? And left to fight a terrorist war? And because actually, it's a s
thole where she's sacrificed oh so many of her enjoyed human rights she had in the UK, now she wants back in?It shouldn't work that way. You left to join a terror organisation. All bets are off.
I don't believe she left to become part of a terrorist organisation, more likely she believed the spiel about an islamic caliphate and wished to live in it.
A lot of gullible idiots believed in this goal and being fanatical about their religion and goals acted in a fashion repugnant to us for centuries.
Of course a caliphate implies a caliph, wonder what would have happened had they succeeded in stabilising their caliphate against outside influence?
I think that rather than an area of peace and prosperity it would have imploded and eaten itself.
I also think we should be looking at how a child born in this country reached the age of fifteen and had views so contrary to what I would consider our countries values.
Not sure a deep and abiding belief in Islam can ever be integrated into a secular society, the belief in religious teachings takes precedence over societal norms and laws.
She did choose her bed, but we allowed her to be mis educated into making her choice, no reason to take her back, other than a sense of responsibility but we need to take a long hard look at why she made her choices.
A lot of gullible idiots believed in this goal and being fanatical about their religion and goals acted in a fashion repugnant to us for centuries.
Of course a caliphate implies a caliph, wonder what would have happened had they succeeded in stabilising their caliphate against outside influence?
I think that rather than an area of peace and prosperity it would have imploded and eaten itself.
I also think we should be looking at how a child born in this country reached the age of fifteen and had views so contrary to what I would consider our countries values.
Not sure a deep and abiding belief in Islam can ever be integrated into a secular society, the belief in religious teachings takes precedence over societal norms and laws.
She did choose her bed, but we allowed her to be mis educated into making her choice, no reason to take her back, other than a sense of responsibility but we need to take a long hard look at why she made her choices.
stitched said:
I don't believe she left to become part of a terrorist organisation, more likely she believed the spiel about an islamic caliphate and wished to live in it.
Similar to joining the Crusades I suppose. Something we're still demonised for, and not just by those we invaded.gruffalo said:
R Mutt said:
Similar to joining the Crusades I suppose. Something we're still demonised for, and not just by those we invaded.
The Crusades were in direct response to Muslim aggression round the med, a small bit of history that is often forgotten.stitched said:
I don't believe she left to become part of a terrorist organisation, more likely she believed the spiel about an islamic caliphate and wished to live in it.
A lot of gullible idiots believed in this goal and being fanatical about their religion and goals acted in a fashion repugnant to us for centuries.
Of course a caliphate implies a caliph, wonder what would have happened had they succeeded in stabilising their caliphate against outside influence?
I think that rather than an area of peace and prosperity it would have imploded and eaten itself.
I also think we should be looking at how a child born in this country reached the age of fifteen and had views so contrary to what I would consider our countries values.
Not sure a deep and abiding belief in Islam can ever be integrated into a secular society, the belief in religious teachings takes precedence over societal norms and laws.
She did choose her bed, but we allowed her to be mis educated into making her choice, no reason to take her back, other than a sense of responsibility but we need to take a long hard look at why she made her choices.
Your first statement is unfortunately a little naive of the timeline of vents of ISIL which had very obviously and clearly displayed to the World that is was using terrorism and in particular professionally filmed beheadings to demonstrate the type of Organisation it had already become and wished to remain.A lot of gullible idiots believed in this goal and being fanatical about their religion and goals acted in a fashion repugnant to us for centuries.
Of course a caliphate implies a caliph, wonder what would have happened had they succeeded in stabilising their caliphate against outside influence?
I think that rather than an area of peace and prosperity it would have imploded and eaten itself.
I also think we should be looking at how a child born in this country reached the age of fifteen and had views so contrary to what I would consider our countries values.
Not sure a deep and abiding belief in Islam can ever be integrated into a secular society, the belief in religious teachings takes precedence over societal norms and laws.
She did choose her bed, but we allowed her to be mis educated into making her choice, no reason to take her back, other than a sense of responsibility but we need to take a long hard look at why she made her choices.
Your last statement also worries me a little too; we didn't 'allow her' to be mis-educated into making that choice, she willfully, deliberately and soberly chose that path despite others efforts to maintain a more 'western' education.
I agree whole-heartedly with your opinions on her Islamic faith, it's fundamental integration issues with secular society, and her lack of belief in our countries core values.
As recent events have shown, there are those who choose extremist religous paths who can never be swayed back to more moderate values, and thus can never, and should never, be trusted in our more peaceful, understanding, liberal, free-speaking and tolerant society.
It really pisses me off when woke idiots claim that somehow "we" failed her and "we" have some responsibility for her actions.
Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a st hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.
Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a s
t hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
It really pisses me off when woke idiots claim that somehow "we" failed her and "we" have some responsibility for her actions.
Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a st hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.
It might cheer you up gloating over her as there was no real damage done but its totally ignoring the deeper problem we have. Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a s
t hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.Somethings going badly wrong if people are growing up after winning the lottery purely of being born in UK and having all the advantages that comes with, and still feel the need to blow themselves up on the tube or try and behead a soldier.
How are these people so marginalised or unhappy that that seems like a logical path for them to take?
Sure this one went abroad and got stuck there and it'll give some of us a cheap giggle, but it'd be less funny if she decided to get a bit stabby or pop down Hertz and rent a van.
I think to some level "we" are failing if people feel the need to do that. I'd blame their family far more, but its certainly a problem that we're all going to have to deal with.
Algarve said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
It really pisses me off when woke idiots claim that somehow "we" failed her and "we" have some responsibility for her actions.
Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a st hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.
It might cheer you up gloating over her as there was no real damage done but its totally ignoring the deeper problem we have. Fecking unbelievable. Well, those people can continue wringing their hands at the situation, i will continue being glad that she is rotting in a s
t hole camp with no chance of ever getting back here. One person is responsible for her actions. One. Not a society, One. It is incredibly easy NOT to run off and join a terrorist organisation. I know literally hundreds of people that haven't done so.Somethings going badly wrong if people are growing up after winning the lottery purely of being born in UK and having all the advantages that comes with, and still feel the need to blow themselves up on the tube or try and behead a soldier.
How are these people so marginalised or unhappy that that seems like a logical path for them to take?
Sure this one went abroad and got stuck there and it'll give some of us a cheap giggle, but it'd be less funny if she decided to get a bit stabby or pop down Hertz and rent a van.
I think to some level "we" are failing if people feel the need to do that. I'd blame their family far more, but its certainly a problem that we're all going to have to deal with.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
jamoor said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
Society hadn’t failed, the Muslim community has failed by failing to tackle extremism but instead allowing it to spread.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Who’s the Muslim community exactly?We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
Triumph Trollomite said:
jamoor said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
Society hadn’t failed, the Muslim community has failed by failing to tackle extremism but instead allowing it to spread.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Who’s the Muslim community exactly?We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
It is no more responsible for tackling extremism than the Catholic Community was for the IRA
98elise said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
jamoor said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
Society hadn’t failed, the Muslim community has failed by failing to tackle extremism but instead allowing it to spread.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Who’s the Muslim community exactly?We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
It is no more responsible for tackling extremism than the Catholic Community was for the IRA
98elise said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
jamoor said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
Society hadn’t failed, the Muslim community has failed by failing to tackle extremism but instead allowing it to spread.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Who’s the Muslim community exactly?We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
It is no more responsible for tackling extremism than the Catholic Community was for the IRA
Next thing we will be blaming the Manchester community for giving us some of the gangsters the came out of moss side for not doing anything to stop it.
The Islamic faith as a whole has two very significant issues it continually faces that gives people inside the faith problems of conscience, and people outside of their faith a view of tremendous instability.
The primary issue for those inside the faith is of Sunni's and Shia's and their inability to peaceably co-exist without conflict. Compare this with Catholicism with its Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic schism; these very separate belief systems now co-exist very peaceable and in friendship, indeed Christianity itself in its almost unending shades is largely peaceful across its spectrum.
The issue for those outside the faith is the view looking in that it is largely from within the faith that extremism is permitted to still hide and occasionally grow. I am not saying the huge majority of Muslims in any way help, believe or know of this but it is evident that far from extremist Imam's setting up their own mosques and gathering houses they are using the existing range of mosques and communities from which to cherry pick the vulnerable, dis-affected or just downright evil individuals to whom they can spread their evil extremist narrow views.
Another significant problem is interpretation of its ancient texts. All religions to a certain extent have ancient texts passed down from primitive times and all somehow have to interpret these for living in a modern world. Any preacher from any faith who still believes word for word the waring and spiteful words of those primitive times should be ignored by believers who live in the now rather than the past, but again Islam does seem to have an above average number of these rare individuals who believe in apocalyptic terms and wars between believers and non-believers.
Islam as a faith is not very good at dealing with any external criticism, perhaps none are, but it has to become better at self criticism, and self examination, for the sake of the 99.99999% of its faithful for whom extremism is a shameful side to its largely peaceful faith.
Peace, and may your god, or dog, or rabbit, whatever, go with you.
The primary issue for those inside the faith is of Sunni's and Shia's and their inability to peaceably co-exist without conflict. Compare this with Catholicism with its Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic schism; these very separate belief systems now co-exist very peaceable and in friendship, indeed Christianity itself in its almost unending shades is largely peaceful across its spectrum.
The issue for those outside the faith is the view looking in that it is largely from within the faith that extremism is permitted to still hide and occasionally grow. I am not saying the huge majority of Muslims in any way help, believe or know of this but it is evident that far from extremist Imam's setting up their own mosques and gathering houses they are using the existing range of mosques and communities from which to cherry pick the vulnerable, dis-affected or just downright evil individuals to whom they can spread their evil extremist narrow views.
Another significant problem is interpretation of its ancient texts. All religions to a certain extent have ancient texts passed down from primitive times and all somehow have to interpret these for living in a modern world. Any preacher from any faith who still believes word for word the waring and spiteful words of those primitive times should be ignored by believers who live in the now rather than the past, but again Islam does seem to have an above average number of these rare individuals who believe in apocalyptic terms and wars between believers and non-believers.
Islam as a faith is not very good at dealing with any external criticism, perhaps none are, but it has to become better at self criticism, and self examination, for the sake of the 99.99999% of its faithful for whom extremism is a shameful side to its largely peaceful faith.
Peace, and may your god, or dog, or rabbit, whatever, go with you.
jamoor said:
98elise said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
jamoor said:
Triumph Trollomite said:
Society hadn’t failed, the Muslim community has failed by failing to tackle extremism but instead allowing it to spread.
We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Who’s the Muslim community exactly?We haven’t failed anyone, they’ve failed themselves and we pay the price.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
It is no more responsible for tackling extremism than the Catholic Community was for the IRA
Next thing we will be blaming the Manchester community for giving us some of the gangsters the came out of moss side for not doing anything to stop it.
psi310398 said:
Perhaps we could also blame the Jewish community for facilitating Robert Maxwell or Lord Kagan while we are at it?
It’s this kind of st of trying to avoid the obvious issue that causes the rise of populism. It’s why Yorkshire police allowed the biggest case of child abuse to go unchallenged for fear of being called racist.
There is a wider problem with the way in which Muslim communities behave or allow themselves to behave behind closed doors. Does this mean all are bad? No. But there’s a global issue from Islamic terrorism and no matter how you try to ignore it, the problem is there for all to see but for the socially correct to ignore
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