Shamima Begum...
Discussion
Triumph Trollomite said:
psi310398 said:
Perhaps we could also blame the Jewish community for facilitating Robert Maxwell or Lord Kagan while we are at it?
It’s this kind of s
t of trying to avoid the obvious issue that causes the rise of populism. It’s why Yorkshire police allowed the biggest case of child abuse to go unchallenged for fear of being called racist.
There is a wider problem with the way in which Muslim communities behave or allow themselves to behave behind closed doors. Does this mean all are bad? No. But there’s a global issue from Islamic terrorism and no matter how you try to ignore it, the problem is there for all to see but for the socially correct to ignore
How many members of the muslim community have met this lady, or in fact any of the other absconders? They literally have nothing to do with them and frankly I'd be surprised if they even care about these induviduals.
Triumph Trollomite said:
I guess if you want to be a smart prick about it then I guess you want me to say something like the following.
Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
I’m going to assume you’re white british. But hopefully the point I’m going to make is relevant either way.Whilst there are numbers of the Muslim community, throughout Europe, who do not follow or support the violence, the wider community has allowed and, by virtue of not tackling radicalism head on, supported extreme attacks. There has been no real public display of outcry or marching to show of solidarity with the countries in which they live.
I guess it’s our fault though.
What marches have you been on to renounce for example the killing of Jo Cox (by a “Christian”), or sexually abuse cases by “Christian” priests?
McGee_22 said:
The Islamic faith as a whole has two very significant issues it continually faces that gives people inside the faith problems of conscience, and people outside of their faith a view of tremendous instability.
The primary issue for those inside the faith is of Sunni's and Shia's and their inability to peaceably co-exist without conflict. Compare this with Catholicism with its Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic schism; these very separate belief systems now co-exist very peaceable and in friendship, indeed Christianity itself in its almost unending shades is largely peaceful across its spectrum.
The issue for those outside the faith is the view looking in that it is largely from within the faith that extremism is permitted to still hide and occasionally grow. I am not saying the huge majority of Muslims in any way help, believe or know of this but it is evident that far from extremist Imam's setting up their own mosques and gathering houses they are using the existing range of mosques and communities from which to cherry pick the vulnerable, dis-affected or just downright evil individuals to whom they can spread their evil extremist narrow views.
Another significant problem is interpretation of its ancient texts. All religions to a certain extent have ancient texts passed down from primitive times and all somehow have to interpret these for living in a modern world. Any preacher from any faith who still believes word for word the waring and spiteful words of those primitive times should be ignored by believers who live in the now rather than the past, but again Islam does seem to have an above average number of these rare individuals who believe in apocalyptic terms and wars between believers and non-believers.
Islam as a faith is not very good at dealing with any external criticism, perhaps none are, but it has to become better at self criticism, and self examination, for the sake of the 99.99999% of its faithful for whom extremism is a shameful side to its largely peaceful faith.
Peace, and may your god, or dog, or rabbit, whatever, go with you.
This is pretty much my view on it. I personally have no faith and no axe to grind, but I am able to observe and read.The primary issue for those inside the faith is of Sunni's and Shia's and their inability to peaceably co-exist without conflict. Compare this with Catholicism with its Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic schism; these very separate belief systems now co-exist very peaceable and in friendship, indeed Christianity itself in its almost unending shades is largely peaceful across its spectrum.
The issue for those outside the faith is the view looking in that it is largely from within the faith that extremism is permitted to still hide and occasionally grow. I am not saying the huge majority of Muslims in any way help, believe or know of this but it is evident that far from extremist Imam's setting up their own mosques and gathering houses they are using the existing range of mosques and communities from which to cherry pick the vulnerable, dis-affected or just downright evil individuals to whom they can spread their evil extremist narrow views.
Another significant problem is interpretation of its ancient texts. All religions to a certain extent have ancient texts passed down from primitive times and all somehow have to interpret these for living in a modern world. Any preacher from any faith who still believes word for word the waring and spiteful words of those primitive times should be ignored by believers who live in the now rather than the past, but again Islam does seem to have an above average number of these rare individuals who believe in apocalyptic terms and wars between believers and non-believers.
Islam as a faith is not very good at dealing with any external criticism, perhaps none are, but it has to become better at self criticism, and self examination, for the sake of the 99.99999% of its faithful for whom extremism is a shameful side to its largely peaceful faith.
Peace, and may your god, or dog, or rabbit, whatever, go with you.
Alpinestars said:
I’m going to assume you’re white british. But hopefully the point I’m going to make is relevant either way.
What marches have you been on to renounce for example the killing of Jo Cox (by a “Christian”), or sexually abuse cases by “Christian” priests?
I missed the part where those individuals claimed to have done those things on behalf of the lord Jesus Christ and in the name of my religion.What marches have you been on to renounce for example the killing of Jo Cox (by a “Christian”), or sexually abuse cases by “Christian” priests?
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I missed the part where those individuals claimed to have done those things on behalf of the lord Jesus Christ and in the name of my religion.
Not a great argument. You cannot vicariously bind someone to an action. I don’t feel responsible for any actions committed by British criminals, whether they carry them out in the name of Britain or not. Do you feel responsible for any crimes committed by people who reference english, being white, working class, [any other attributes that fits your profile] etc etc? Did you march after the Iraq war? Wasn’t that carried out in the name of (a Christian) god? And in any case by Britain. Reminds me of this;
https://youtu.be/6KIIygnffTE
Bam89 said:
When is Rolf Harris being stripped of his citizenship and being deported?
Surely we can't send people back to Jamaica for dangerous driving and continue to allow a nonce to stay here just because he's a citizen? Precedent has been set now
Didn't you say the exact same thing in the Jamaica deportation thread?Surely we can't send people back to Jamaica for dangerous driving and continue to allow a nonce to stay here just because he's a citizen? Precedent has been set now
Alpinestars said:
Not a great argument. You cannot vicariously bind someone to an action. I don’t feel responsible for any actions committed by British criminals, whether they carry them out in the name of Britain or not. Do you feel responsible for any crimes committed by people who reference english, being white, working class, [any other attributes that fits your profile] etc etc? Did you march after the Iraq war? Wasn’t that carried out in the name of (a Christian) god? And in any case by Britain.
Reminds me of this;
https://youtu.be/6KIIygnffTE
No, but then I dont blame all muslims for terror attacks. I was objecting to the whataboutism.Reminds me of this;
https://youtu.be/6KIIygnffTE
I'm not sure what your point is, other than agreeing with me in a roundabout way.
Alpinestars said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I missed the part where those individuals claimed to have done those things on behalf of the lord Jesus Christ and in the name of my religion.
Not a great argument. You cannot vicariously bind someone to an action. I don’t feel responsible for any actions committed by British criminals, whether they carry them out in the name of Britain or not. Do you feel responsible for any crimes committed by people who reference english, being white, working class, [any other attributes that fits your profile] etc etc? Did you march after the Iraq war? Wasn’t that carried out in the name of (a Christian) god? And in any case by Britain. Reminds me of this;
https://youtu.be/6KIIygnffTE
Voluntarily associating/identifying as something? I think that's different, that does reflect on you as a person. If I identify as a knitter, and another knitter is killing people in the name of knitting, should I not be either distancing myself from knitting OR removing the nutters from my knitting group? Start a new knitting group called KnittingPeacefully or something.
It only falls down because religion. If only we could get people to stop taking such nonsense so seriously
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
I missed the part where those individuals claimed to have done those things on behalf of the lord Jesus Christ and in the name of my religion.
You have also evidently missed the parts where your 'saviour' bangs on at some length about forgiveness and about those without sin casting the first stone etc but that's fairly par for the course for the more sanctimonious type of Christian...
amusingduck said:
I can't help my skin colour, or where I was born, so I wouldn't feel responsible for nasty things done by people who share those characteristics.
Voluntarily associating/identifying as something? I think that's different, that does reflect on you as a person. If I identify as a knitter, and another knitter is killing people in the name of knitting, should I not be either distancing myself from knitting OR removing the nutters from my knitting group? Start a new knitting group called KnittingPeacefully or something.
It only falls down because religion. If only we could get people to stop taking such nonsense so seriously
Whilst I agree with religion being nonsense, someone follows “x”, committing crimes/doing something “in the name of/because he is”, “x”, does not mean he speaks and carries out actions for everyone else who is “x”. I’d hope that’s pretty obvious.Voluntarily associating/identifying as something? I think that's different, that does reflect on you as a person. If I identify as a knitter, and another knitter is killing people in the name of knitting, should I not be either distancing myself from knitting OR removing the nutters from my knitting group? Start a new knitting group called KnittingPeacefully or something.
It only falls down because religion. If only we could get people to stop taking such nonsense so seriously
I’m a die hard United fan. The idiots that sabotaged Woodward’s house do not speak for me or represent me. And I don’t feel the need to go on a march to demonstrate that. And neither does it make any sense to say I am jointly responsible for the sabotage.
Dumb argument.
Alpinestars said:
Whilst I agree with religion being nonsense, someone follows “x”, committing crimes/doing something “in the name of/because he is”, “x”, does not mean he speaks and carries out actions for everyone else who is “x”. I’d hope that’s pretty obvious.
I’m a die hard United fan. The idiots that sabotaged Woodward’s house do not speak for me or represent me. And I don’t feel the need to go on a march to demonstrate that. And neither does it make any sense to say I am jointly responsible for the sabotage.
Dumb argument.
It is obvious, my post was more about how I think I'd feel about it, rather than how I feel about other people. It's a bit too nuanced for my clumsy discourse, I thinkI’m a die hard United fan. The idiots that sabotaged Woodward’s house do not speak for me or represent me. And I don’t feel the need to go on a march to demonstrate that. And neither does it make any sense to say I am jointly responsible for the sabotage.
Dumb argument.
You don't get to choose what culture you are raised in. I am culturally Christian because that is the culture I come from. My own religious beliefs are neither here nor there. I would say that you get to choose whether you are a believer or not, but actually I'm not really sure you do. You believe or you don't believe. I couldn't choose to stop being an atheist. I couldn't choose to believe something I don't. I could adopt the rituals of a religion, but that wouldn't make me a believer.
alfaman said:
Why not just follow the example of the largest Muslim country.. Indonesia.
There are around 800 ISIS members / terrorists from Indonesia in camps or prisons in Syria.
Widodo thinks it's too high risk to bring any home. So they're not being repatriated.
simple approach
Indonesia being a “Muslim” country is irrelevant. There are around 800 ISIS members / terrorists from Indonesia in camps or prisons in Syria.
Widodo thinks it's too high risk to bring any home. So they're not being repatriated.
simple approach
Agammemnon said:
Bam89 said:
Agammemnon said:
Didn't you say the exact same thing in the Jamaica deportation thread?
Do you have an answer for it on either thread, or are you a nonce apologist? 
Bam89 said:
When is Rolf Harris being stripped of his citizenship and being deported?
…..
Using Rolf Harris as an example is not going to help you here. Harris is a British Citizen due to his parents being British even though he was born in Australia. Using that example Begum is a Bangladeshi Citizen due to her parents being Bangladeshi even though she was born in the UK. …..
Unfortunately we are stuck with Harris, and using the same principle Bangladesh are stuck with Begum !
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