No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

[Tuna]

98elise said:

bks. We've got about 1000 across the commercial estate we manage and they work

There's a big difference between commercial and domestic. Domestic systems don't get quite the same maintenance schedule(!) and tend to be treated as a bit of a mystery. Like the warm air ventilation systems in the 70's they get into a bit of a state and the next owner doesn't know what to do with them. Then they're ripped out.

Technically, they work - it's very well understood technology.

[98elise]

garyhun said:

98elise said:

Tootles the Taxi said:

Air mass heat pumps don't work. Full stop.

bks. We've got about 1000 across the commercial estate we manage and they work

Just to be clear because terminology can be confusing ..... you’re talking about Air Source Heat Pumps when you say Air MASS heat pumps?

Tootles said "Air Mass". I assume he meant ASHP. I'm not aware of anything called an Air Mass Heat Pump

[98elise]

Tuna said:

98elise said:

bks. We've got about 1000 across the commercial estate we manage and they work

There's a big difference between commercial and domestic. Domestic systems don't get quite the same maintenance schedule(!) and tend to be treated as a bit of a mystery. Like the warm air ventilation systems in the 70's they get into a bit of a state and the next owner doesn't know what to do with them. Then they're ripped out.

Technically, they work - it's very well understood technology.

His assertion was that they don't work full stop, which is bks. As you say the principles are well understood, it's simply air conditioning in reverse and can operate in a cooling or heating mode. As it's not common to have AC in the UK people immediately dismiss the technology.

On a different thread we had someone claiming to be an engineer installing heat pumps. He claimed they didn't work, but didn't even understand the basic principles such as Coefficient of Performance.

[aeropilot]

Tuna said:

Like the warm air ventilation systems in the 70's they get into a bit of a state and the next owner doesn't know what to do with them. Then they're ripped out.

Horrible bloody heating systems.

Was glad to get shot of mine, but had to put up with it for many years. Hideously expensive to run, higher maintenance (including it being a massive dust generator, so much more housework) and in my experience, less healthy for the occupants.

[anonymous-user]

98elise said:

Tootles said "Air Mass". I assume he meant ASHP. I'm not aware of anything called an Air Mass Heat Pump

I assumed the same because I’m not aware either, hence the clarification.

[anonymous-user]

garagewidow said:

Tootles the Taxi said:

Air mass heat pumps don't work. Full stop.

^Exactly this.

There is no free lunch when it comes to consuming energy.

DOH! where's the face palm .gif when you need it!

Of course Heat pumps work! Have you got a car? see that little button that looks like a snow flake on the dash? Have you ever pushed it? I've driven cars in Death Valley at 52 degC (yes 52!!) and inside the Arctic Circle at minus 38 degC, and the HVAC worked on both those occasions! Now of course, you car, which uses an Air Source system has the advantage that it moves at speed through the heat exchange medium, unlike your house, but luckily that's easily fixed with some fans!

Commercial A/C systems work, and work well: ie:



The only issue is that the majority of our existing domestic houses are not (yet) designed to easily integrate such a unit, but there is no reason they couldn't do so (plenty of room in your loft for example)

And the other thing you miss is that there is actually a very large "free lunch" when it comes to heating and cooling things, which is that to do so we only need to MOVE heat energy and not to actually convert heat from some other form, meaning systems like phase change A/C systems can have a Coefficient of Performance (CoP) greater than 1 ie they can MOVE more energy than they consume (think of it as like a wheel barrow, that allows a human to move an object heavier than they can actually lift)

A gas boiler works by burning a fuel, creating heat energy, that is then released into your house at the same rate (for any given room temp) as it escapes to the outside

A heat pump simply acts to push that energy back in again at the same rate it escapes, it is not "creating" any additional heat energy, and hence can be up to 4 times more efficient (energy consumed vs energy moved) ie have a CoP up to 4




(as to Solar panels being a scam, well, let just say watch out for that meteorite eh..... /dinosaur..... ;-) )

[herewego]

If I recall Hammond said something like new houses would also have world class insulation levels. This is the main issue really as with high levels of insulation it doesn't much matter how the house is heated as you won't need much.This is going to have to be extended to the rest of the housing stock though and he's shying away from this elephant which he must know should have been addressed decades ago.

[Sheepshanks]

herewego said:

This is going to have to be extended to the rest of the housing stock though and he's shying away from this elephant which he must know should have been addressed decades ago.

I do wonder about that - our crap built mid-60's house is full of cold bridges and other fundamental problems. I can't see much being done with it, short of flattening it and rebuilding.

[Nickgnome]

Sheepshanks said:

herewego said:

This is going to have to be extended to the rest of the housing stock though and he's shying away from this elephant which he must know should have been addressed decades ago.

I do wonder about that - our crap built mid-60's house is full of cold bridges and other fundamental problems. I can't see much being done with it, short of flattening it and rebuilding.

It is possible to insulate the externally then clad or render. Not a cheap solution though but still generally less than a rebuild.

It would help if the tax regime was changed to be beneficial to those who upgrade the thermal performance of their property.

[monkfish1]

Nickgnome said:

There is absolutely no reason that new houses cannot be built with sufficient air tightness and insulation that they require minimal or no heating.

There is no TECHNICAL reason, agreed.

But as per my earlier post, zero chance of it happening as long as we build houses the way we do, with almost no practical enforcement of standards.

Cant see that changing given the huge vested interests.

Edited by monkfish1 on Saturday 16th March 12:11

[monkfish1]

WindyMills said:

Building Control having greater remit and teeth, and being able to charge hourly will soon get rid of the incompetent and dishonest lot - solving a lot of problems in the industry.

Im not aware of any change taking place? Is there one?

And will the big boys exemption be removed?

[Nickgnome]

monkfish1 said:

Nickgnome said:

There is absolutely no reason that new houses cannot be built with sufficient air tightness and insulation that they require minimal or no heating.

There is no TECHNICAL reason, agreed.

But as per my earlier post, zero chance of it happening as long as we build houses the way we do, with almost no practical enforcement of standards.

Cant see that changing given the huge vested interests.

Edited by monkfish1 on Saturday 16th March 12:11

I agree we do have an huge quality control issue with our domestic construction.

I’m not convinced commercialising building control has helped. In fact if my neighbour’s new build is in any way typical the private building inspector has allowed amazingly shoddy construction, mainly through a lack of oversight.

I am hopeful that factory constructed houses should be much better. Germany and other areas of Europe have been building at a much higher standard for decades.

[s2art]

Max_Torque said:

DOH! where's the face palm .gif when you need it!

Of course Heat pumps work! Have you got a car? see that little button that looks like a snow flake on the dash? Have you ever pushed it? I've driven cars in Death Valley at 52 degC (yes 52!!) and inside the Arctic Circle at minus 38 degC, and the HVAC worked on both those occasions! Now of course, you car, which uses an Air Source system has the advantage that it moves at speed through the heat exchange medium, unlike your house, but luckily that's easily fixed with some fans!



[/small]

You sure that the HVAC was doing much for heating the car at minus 38C. I doubt it was doing much, the heater in the car was doing almost all of the heating.

[monkfish1]

Nickgnome said:

I agree we do have an huge quality control issue with our domestic construction.

I’m not convinced commercialising building control has helped. In fact if my neighbour’s new build is in any way typical the private building inspector has allowed amazingly shoddy construction, mainly through a lack of oversight.

Dont suppose it has helped, or the whole "self certification" thing (ie part P). Sadly, based on what ive seen, especially at my current place, the council BCO clearly has an eyesight problem!!!

Infact, just had a part P registered (who has issued the cert) electrician connect up a supply to sewage treatment plant. Laid SWA to plant. Not connected the armour at either end, so basically not offering the protection needed if i stick a spade through it. Just a joke.

[jet_noise]

Perhaps this ought to be in the "things you always wanted to know" thread but relevant...
...if one insulates the st out of house in efforts to keep warm in winter for minimal energy how do you keep cool in summer?

My partner has a '50s south facing semi with modern improvements - cavity insulation & double glazing. While these have made a difference in winter the house overheats in summer.

And no, opening a window isn't enough

[herewego]

jet_noise said:

Perhaps this ought to be in the "things you always wanted to know" thread but relevant...
...if one insulates the st out of house in efforts to keep warm in winter for minimal energy how do you keep cool in summer?

My partner has a '50s south facing semi with modern improvements - cavity insulation & double glazing. While these have made a difference in winter the house overheats in summer.

And no, opening a window isn't enough

The heat comes through the windows so shading and ventilation.

However switching to heat pumps will be a dogs dinner if they are allowed to be run in the summer for cooling.

[the tribester]

Isn't this the issue, change before we get held to ransom.

[s2art]

the tribester said:

Isn't this the issue, change before we get held to ransom.

Alternatively, Frack, baby Frack.

[jet_noise]

s2art said:

the tribester said:

Isn't this the issue, change before we get held to ransom.

Alternatively, Frack, baby Frack.

Dash for gas, amble to nuclear.

[monkfish1]

herewego said:

jet_noise said:

Perhaps this ought to be in the "things you always wanted to know" thread but relevant...
...if one insulates the st out of house in efforts to keep warm in winter for minimal energy how do you keep cool in summer?

My partner has a '50s south facing semi with modern improvements - cavity insulation & double glazing. While these have made a difference in winter the house overheats in summer.

And no, opening a window isn't enough

The heat comes through the windows so shading and ventilation.

However switching to heat pumps will be a dogs dinner if they are allowed to be run in the summer for cooling.

As above, insulation keeps the heat out in summer just as much it keeps it in in winter. Its for that very reason that solar gain becomes an issue. You are inputting heat through the windows, but it now cant escape.