No gas boilers in new homes after 2025.

[bristolracer]

I suspect that like a lot of these headline grabbing policies it will get delayed, watered down and changed way beyond its original scope.
The government will doubtless hail it as a success by including new build houses that were never near the gas network anyway.
I also think there may be a shortage of cellotex soon after the testimony at the Grenfell enquiry this week.

[FiF]

scottyp123 said:

They have recently build a new gas powered power station near to me and it seems that the majority of power generated is from gas these days.

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Also there are quite a few gas powered ones in the UK and all seem to be fairly new- certainly most built in the last 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_gas_f...

Gas will run out eventually, that obvious. Is it not just as simple as the government/power generators wanting to keep the gas that is left for themselves instead of letting the consumer burn it and then they will use that gas to generate electricity which they can then sell to the same consumers at much greater cost than the gas would have been. Seems obvious to me to be fair.

Edited by scottyp123 on Thursday 19th November 11:37

Harking back to the dash for gas to power electricity generation. At the time, please note that important caveat as it defines the thinking then, but at the time you had two competing fuels for thermal power stations. Coal, viewed as dirty, gas viewed as clean for various reasons. One of the arguments then was why 'waste' the gas burning massive quantities for generation, when you could use it in the millions of small relatively unregulated and monitored domestic applications around, eg heating cooking etc, and burn the 'dirty' fuel in a few highly regulated, well maintained and monitored coal fired power stations. Deregulation etc did for that apart from any environmental arguments simply because you could more cheaply and quickly get a gas turbine station up and generating than a decent pf station.

Just one of the examples that as a country we have made many bad decisions about this over the years, which statement also includes failings due to not making the required decisions.

Personally in years to come suspect these moves from Govt will be viewed negatively much as Blair/Iraq , Brown/various. It could do for Boris, except he won't be in no10 by then, long gone probably.

[aeropilot]

FiF said:

Harking back to the dash for gas to power electricity generation. At the time, please note that important caveat as it defines the thinking then, but at the time you had two competing fuels for thermal power stations. Coal, viewed as dirty, gas viewed as clean for various reasons. One of the arguments then was why 'waste' the gas burning massive quantities for generation, when you could use it in the millions of small relatively unregulated and monitored domestic applications around, eg heating cooking etc, and burn the 'dirty' fuel in a few highly regulated, well maintained and monitored coal fired power stations. Deregulation etc did for that apart from any environmental arguments simply because you could more cheaply and quickly get a gas turbine station up and generating than a decent pf station.

Just one of the examples that as a country we have made many bad decisions about this over the years, which statement also includes failings due to not making the required decisions.

And even earlier, the push to decommission the huge infrastructure created for the production of 'town gas' from coal, as we now had all this lovely clean North Sea Gas.......that would last forever (not) that can now just be piped straight into peoples homes.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

number2 said:

Electricity.

Right so one area that is UFH it is 12 meters x 6m and I think it’s a 6 port UFH setup.
Weve had it on most evenings this autumn from Start of Oct. gas it’s very reasonable so how much will electric cost?

When he says electricity he means an air source heat pump, I presume.

It’ll be more expensive than gas but not as much as pure electric dry ufh.

The wet UFH went down in my renovation yesterday with a gas boiler so I’m OK but at some point in the future even that may be forced out with heat pump technology.

I’m not going to worry about it though as I’ll probably be dead by then

[Evanivitch]

What I find disappointing about gas (and incinerators and biomass) is the complete of district and industrial heating alongside. You can really boost your efficiency in these means.

For example a proposed biomass powerstation has not even approached the paper mill next door to see if there was any mutual benefit to sharing the low grade heat available from the process.

[rxe]

Evanivitch said:

Sounds like it's an exceptionally large property then, with half a dozen or more very deep boreholes.

For public reference, energy saving trust would provide a completely different estimate.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/ground-sou...

You also get a renewable heating payment for air or ground source to-water heat pump systems.

Here’s some real data from a manufacturer. Yes, these would be for big houses - 5 bedroom.


https://www.imsheatpumps.co.uk/blog/cost-of-instal...


Installation of pump -15 grand for a 12 Kw version (I recall we needed more than this - 16 kW)
Boreholes - 5 grand a pop, you’ll need 4 to do 16 kW.

Ta dah, 35K.

[cml24]

I'm not sure its much of an issue for new build properties.

I lived in a 2014 house for a year. Nothing special, just built to building regs of the time. Four bed semi detached, not huge, but certainly not tiny.

We kept it at 21 degrees in every room 24 hours a day as our one year old was at home all day. It was only 6000kWh in gas to heat.

At that point, I'd start to say isn't it cheaper to install a small electric heater in each room, rather than the expense of plumbing in a central heating system and replacing a boiler every ten years?

[Gary C]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Larger properties can be quite good in terms of their thermal performance, compared to small dwellings owing to their better exposed surface area, to enclosed volume ratio.
..

The other way to look at it is, two people in a large house will tend to consume more energy than two in a smaller house (all other things being equal)

Which at the end of the day is more significant than an arbitrary ratio

[garagewidow]

JagLover said:

Biker 1 said:

My place is 15 years old & has way more insulation than building regulations required at the time. The problem is that it is almost hermetically sealed, so wherever there is the slightest cold bridge, like around windows/doors, mould will almost instantly form, especially in the bathroom. The solution? Leave a couple of windows ajar for ventilation, which of course means that a whole load of energy escapes.....

Our house is around the same age and the trickle vents in the double glazed windows seem to do the job of preventing condensation.

I suppose that you are losing heat through the trickle vents but ventilation is unavoidable unless you want condensation and mould as you say. Based on my time watching Grand designs I think the only way around that would be ventilation using a heat exchanger.

That's the trouble with these modern super insulated homes,it's no surprise we are seeing an increase in respiratory conditions these days.

I have a small window open in the bedroom all year round,i'd rather pay a bit extra on gas and be able to breathe better,plus my wife and daughter are useless at closing doors,often get home and the back door is wide open onto the garden.

Time to stock up on boiler spares I think.

[Digga]

I'm out in the sticks, so will carry on using our wood burner. It's not very efficient, especially when there's a large dog in pole position, blocking much of the heat, but the fuel is, seemingly, infinitely renewable.

[98elise]

cml24 said:

I'm not sure its much of an issue for new build properties.

I lived in a 2014 house for a year. Nothing special, just built to building regs of the time. Four bed semi detached, not huge, but certainly not tiny.

We kept it at 21 degrees in every room 24 hours a day as our one year old was at home all day. It was only 6000kWh in gas to heat.

At that point, I'd start to say isn't it cheaper to install a small electric heater in each room, rather than the expense of plumbing in a central heating system and replacing a boiler every ten years?

I would prefer having heat when and where I needed it. In the mornings the only room that really needs heat is the living room. The dining room is hardly ever used, and my wife doesn't like the radiator on in the kitchen. The bedrooms are fine from the night before, and the heating is timed to come on just as we get up anyway.

We could survive with just heating the whole house in the early evening.

[Evanivitch]

Digga said:

I'm out in the sticks, so will carry on using our wood burner. It's not very efficient, especially when there's a large dog in pole position, blocking much of the heat, but the fuel is, seemingly, infinitely renewable.

And they're great in the sticks, but a pollution nightmare in the suburbs with people burning unseasoned, scavenged and treated softwood.

[anonymous-user]

Digga said:

I'm out in the sticks, so will carry on using our wood burner. It's not very efficient, especially when there's a large dog in pole position, blocking much of the heat, but the fuel is, seemingly, infinitely renewable.

The new wood burners, especially from the likes of Contura, and amazingly efficient these days.

My dad installed a new one a few months ago and it's quite amazing. Burns so efficiently that there is nothing but a very thin layer of dusty ash left in the bottom. Doesn't even need cleaned out each time. Just set the new logs on top of the ash next time and relight it.

Only needs cleaned out every few weeks and the glass stays totally clear.

This is provided, of course, that you use proper dried wood. If you use green wood, old treated wood, or chopped up old railway sleepers then expect your chimney and stove to be absolutely dripping in rubbish.

[Terminator X]

Heat pumps? Absolute ste and bloody expensive!

TX.

[davejones]

Haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been covered - I started a house build project in 2009 we are in a rural location and have a reasonable amount of land so we installed a GSHP from Danfoss - house was completed in 2011 and we moved in permanently in 2012. I seem to remember the hardware was about £9k with a government contribution of £2k, Its been very reliable, however it is really a core or background heat solution, you can't turn up the stats and get a swift response, you have to mess with a heat curve on the pump to increase temperature (unless I have been mis-informed). We have underfloor heating everywhere which is what they work best with and compliment it with a large log burner in the main lounge on very cold days. The installation involved a major excavation - we went for a loop rather than borehole and buried two loops, one at about 2 metres and one at 1 metre in the garden which looked like we were installing an Olympic sized swimming pool, we could do this on a new build as we had machinery on site and time available. I can't tell how cost effective it is to run as I don't have any before and after comparisons and my previous house in South London was a large Victorian place with bad insulation and gas heating - overall my energy bills are a little less but the new build is of course much better insulated.
We then built an Annex and pool house, initially hoping to branch off the GSHP, however the combined needs were more than the existing pump could handle so we were talked into putting in an ASHP - again Danfoss for that complex.(again the costs were in the region of £9k but this time of course we didn't have huge costs associated with the infrastructure installation) This setup also employs underfloor heating and has the same constraints as the GSHP - however the fan unit is noisy and we have had several issues with pressure drops between it and the Pump itself, otherwise it has been pretty reliable.
My conclusion is that heat pumps are an interesting proposition especially if you are undertaking a new build project, have space and employ underfloor heating, I believe that they are less efficient when hooked up to radiators and can't see how they can be a solution for more densely populated areas. Unless there have been significant movements in price since we bought ours they seem much more expensive that conventional boilers.

[Terminator X]

Biker 1 said:

I've been involved in installing a couple of air source heat pumps recently. They work extremely well, appear to be reliable & cheap to run.

However, there are several issues:

1. Noise: gas boilers hum gently & even at night are not really an issue. ASHP fans are noisy buggers, so location is critical
2. National Grid capacity: is there sufficient capacity, before one even allows for the looming electric car charging points everywhere?
3. Retro fitting: how does one fit ASHP units to high rise flats, or blocks with shared boilers? Small block near me has a shared gas boiler located in the attic - there is limited space even for the current gas boiler & I have no idea if its even possible to mount an ASHP compressor unit on a pitched/tiled roof, 4 storeys up..........

Seriously expensive up-front cost though?

TX.

[Terminator X]

Evanivitch said:

bristolracer said:

The other problem with retro fitting other air source/ground source, solar panels and other boiler alternatives is cost.

Anyone over the age of 55 will probably be dead by the time they have recovered their investment.

Solar and simple ASHP fits have a payback period of about 11 years. So hardly.

Can you show your maths?

TX.

[ChocolateFrog]

Madness.

Gas is clean, efficient and cheap, all the hardwork re infrastructure is already in place.

It will make new houses even less appealing than they are today.

[ChocolateFrog]

garagewidow said:

JagLover said:

Biker 1 said:

My place is 15 years old & has way more insulation than building regulations required at the time. The problem is that it is almost hermetically sealed, so wherever there is the slightest cold bridge, like around windows/doors, mould will almost instantly form, especially in the bathroom. The solution? Leave a couple of windows ajar for ventilation, which of course means that a whole load of energy escapes.....

Our house is around the same age and the trickle vents in the double glazed windows seem to do the job of preventing condensation.

I suppose that you are losing heat through the trickle vents but ventilation is unavoidable unless you want condensation and mould as you say. Based on my time watching Grand designs I think the only way around that would be ventilation using a heat exchanger.

That's the trouble with these modern super insulated homes,it's no surprise we are seeing an increase in respiratory conditions these days.

I have a small window open in the bedroom all year round,i'd rather pay a bit extra on gas and be able to breathe better,plus my wife and daughter are useless at closing doors,often get home and the back door is wide open onto the garden.

Time to stock up on boiler spares I think.

When I was working in Building services (shudder) about 12 years ago there would be a lot of talk about mechanical vent in new domestic builds. More often than not it would be deleted on cost grounds. Hence the problems above.

Similarly most of the schools we built under the Building Schools for the Future scheme were specified with natural vent and automatic window openers linked to CO2 sensors. All the automatic stuff and sensors was deleted on cost grounds and they wonder why kids get drowsy in a sealed room with 30 other kids all day.

[aeropilot]

ChocolateFrog said:

Similarly most of the schools we built under the Building Schools for the Future scheme were specified with natural vent and automatic window openers linked to CO2 sensors. All the automatic stuff and sensors was deleted on cost grounds and they wonder why kids get drowsy in a sealed room with 30 other kids all day.

I worked on the design of half a dozen schools under BSF between about 2009 to 2012 and I think all of them had that same cost cutting measure.....among others, instead of cutting back some of the heads vanity items