How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)
Discussion
Nickgnome said:
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
There is no second referendum in the offingWould the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
The question however, would not be leave or remain as we are past that point and negotiations have taken place.
It is the losers that generally request a rerun.
All in all pretty pointless question.
As they have what they want.
It’s about getting what one wants, not democracy.
Hence the clear split of winners against a rerun, losers for a rerun.
sunbeam alpine said:
The level of support for a "Hard" Brexit on PH amazes me.
I posted a while back (vol 6 or 7, I think) that a no-deal Brexit which resulted in tariffs in agriculture would cost me personally about €2500 per month, and threaten 9 jobs at one of my UK-based suppliers. It would also put both my brother and sister-in-law's jobs in the UK under threat.
A general question (if I may) to members who are supporting Brexit "at any cost" - how can you be so certain that you will not be personally affected by the UK crashing out?
Under May's Deal I'm certain I'll be affected in the long term, and in the short term there will be market jitters around the time where 'leaving' becomes a certainty rather than an abstract idea.I posted a while back (vol 6 or 7, I think) that a no-deal Brexit which resulted in tariffs in agriculture would cost me personally about €2500 per month, and threaten 9 jobs at one of my UK-based suppliers. It would also put both my brother and sister-in-law's jobs in the UK under threat.
A general question (if I may) to members who are supporting Brexit "at any cost" - how can you be so certain that you will not be personally affected by the UK crashing out?
Under a no-deal Brexit I'd expect some costs to increase, and some of the work I do might change as there is a lot of international cooperation in my industry.
Under revoking A50, I'd expect a significant realignment of my industry which could see a lot of jobs going to the continent, but over a longer timescale.
I've certainly never supported Brexit at any cost, but I am very concerned at any arrangement that prevents us from independent control of regulation and tariffs - both problems I have with May's deal, in the WA and the PD. None of the options we face are going to guarantee jobs for all, and I'm certain jobs will be lost in different sectors under every possible outcome. However, if we're not able to make domestic policy decisions that at least softens the blow, we're going to be in for a very difficult period. We've made membership an issue, so any economic change now is going to be picking at that sore point for one group of voters or another.
Nickgnome said:
B'stard Child said:
Troubleatmill said:
The problem is we have circa 400 Remainers in Parliament the majority won their seats under a Leave manifesto - who quite simple want us to remain.
Guy Fawkes has the right idea.
I see that as a cost saving - the restoration/refurbishment costs of the HoP are going to spiral out of control Guy Fawkes has the right idea.
Flatten it - prime real estate on the banks of the thames - perfect for redevelopment
Build a new Parliament in the middle of the country for a fraction of the cost
Reduces the expenses claims for all those MP's and Lords (no expensive second London property required)
And stops the buggers being so Londoncentric
Only wins in my book
Either would have been a good idea.
king lunacy!!!!Nickgnome said:
Refurbishing whilst MPs in occupation is a scandalous waste of tax payer money.
My preference was to turn it into a museum of our politics through the ages with maybe an hotel.
Would have made a mint with tourism.
Build a new fit for purpose parliament building somewhere relatively close by as most of the ministries are in the locality.
Museum or Hotel would have still had considerable costs to get it to a decent stdMy preference was to turn it into a museum of our politics through the ages with maybe an hotel.
Would have made a mint with tourism.
Build a new fit for purpose parliament building somewhere relatively close by as most of the ministries are in the locality.
Flatten it and flog the site - plenty of other attractions
philv said:
Nickgnome said:
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
There is no second referendum in the offingWould the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
The question however, would not be leave or remain as we are past that point and negotiations have taken place.
It is the losers that generally request a rerun.
All in all pretty pointless question.
As they have what they want.
It’s about getting what one wants, not democracy.
Hence the clear split of winners against a rerun, losers for a rerun.
What we actually have are those who only want to respect a democratic vote, if it goes they way `they' wanted it to. and consequently want go after go until or if the vote goes the way `they' wanted it to. After that they will probably call for referendums to be banned, like some of the elite in the EU suggested.
Oh for sure they will come with numerous and spurious reasons why the first vote should be ignored, but its only down to them throwing a tantrum, because they didn't get the result they wanted. people can easily see through that course of action.
B'stard Child said:
Museum or Hotel would have still had considerable costs to get it to a decent std
Flatten it and flog the site - plenty of other attractions
The numbers would stack up for a part commercial sympathetic refurbishment. Flatten it and flog the site - plenty of other attractions
We do not flatten our heritage. Nor do we build housing estates in the grounds of our stately homes around the country.
Troubleatmill said:
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
They are clutching at any straw possible. Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
Quite simply. We do not need another referendum.
The question was asked and answered.
The problem is we have circa 400 Remainers in Parliament the majority won their seats under a Leave manifesto - who quite simple want us to remain.
Guy Fawkes has the right idea.
Does that mean that Parliament should accept the withdrawal agreement or agree to no-deal or extend article 50 so that someone can renegotiate?
Which one of those is the correct response to the referendum?
Some leave voters have stated that they will be furious if parliament accepts the withdrawal agreement, others say they will be furious if it does not. Everyone seems to be furious about a delay.
The 2016 result is no help at all on sorting this mess out.
Should parliament just guess what we want? Maybe they should toss a coin? Or maybe, just maybe, we should get to vote on it.
Nickgnome said:
steve_k said:
Nickgnome said:
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
There is no second referendum in the offingWould the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
The question however, would not be leave or remain as we are past that point and negotiations have taken place.
It is the losers that generally request a rerun.
All in all pretty pointless question.
I am asking about how the results of such a scenario would be accepted not if it will happen, sorry if this was not clear to you.
Pan Pan Pan said:
In the 2016 referendum leave won with a clear majority. Do you know what 1.7 million people looks like?
What we actually have are those who only want to respect a democratic vote, if it goes they way `they' wanted it to. and consequently want go after go until or if the vote goes the way `they' wanted it to. After that they will probably call for referendums to be banned, like some of the elite in the EU suggested.
Oh for sure they will come with numerous and spurious reasons why the first vote should be ignored, but its only down to them throwing a tantrum, because they didn't get the result they wanted. people can easily see through that course of action.
Who are they?What we actually have are those who only want to respect a democratic vote, if it goes they way `they' wanted it to. and consequently want go after go until or if the vote goes the way `they' wanted it to. After that they will probably call for referendums to be banned, like some of the elite in the EU suggested.
Oh for sure they will come with numerous and spurious reasons why the first vote should be ignored, but its only down to them throwing a tantrum, because they didn't get the result they wanted. people can easily see through that course of action.
Nickgnome said:
B'stard Child said:
Museum or Hotel would have still had considerable costs to get it to a decent std
Flatten it and flog the site - plenty of other attractions
The numbers would stack up for a part commercial sympathetic refurbishment. Flatten it and flog the site - plenty of other attractions
We do not flatten our heritage.
Nickgnome said:
Nor do we build housing estates in the grounds of our stately homes around the country.
Clearly there is a reason for that Pan Pan Pan said:
In the 2016 referendum leave won with a clear majority. Do you know what 1.7 million people looks like?
What we actually have are those who only want to respect a democratic vote, if it goes they way `they' wanted it to. and consequently want go after go until or if the vote goes the way `they' wanted it to. After that they will probably call for referendums to be banned, like some of the elite in the EU suggested.
Oh for sure they will come with numerous and spurious reasons why the first vote should be ignored, but its only down to them throwing a tantrum, because they didn't get the result they wanted. people can easily see through that course of action.
Who is ignoring the 2016 vote? What we actually have are those who only want to respect a democratic vote, if it goes they way `they' wanted it to. and consequently want go after go until or if the vote goes the way `they' wanted it to. After that they will probably call for referendums to be banned, like some of the elite in the EU suggested.
Oh for sure they will come with numerous and spurious reasons why the first vote should be ignored, but its only down to them throwing a tantrum, because they didn't get the result they wanted. people can easily see through that course of action.
Brexit has been rammed down everyone’s throats for almost 3 years. Instead of blaming everyone else how about answering the big question.
How do you expect parliament to choose between a s
tty deal, a calamitous no-deal or a delay and attempted renegotiation?Which one of those honours the referendum?
Why can no leavers answer the question?
paulrockliffe said:
alfie2244 said:
Don't you think UKIP may be moving that way and leaving a hole for a new"not so far" right party to fill.....perhaps with Brexit as it's main, if not only issue?
Maybe even with Brexit in it's name.This smearing of people that voted for Brexit as far right and what not is pretty pathetic.
I think you’re imagining things if you’re suggesting that many people are saying that ALL leave voters are far right - but the cap clearly fits for some.
steve_k said:
Just waffle and nothing to do with the question asked, here is a clue for you "If it goes to a second referendum" nothing in the question I am asking is saying it will or wont happen.
I am asking about how the results of such a scenario would be accepted not if it will happen, sorry if this was not clear to you.
It’s completely clear. You haven’t had many takers though.I am asking about how the results of such a scenario would be accepted not if it will happen, sorry if this was not clear to you.
Your first question. I’ll answer like this. We have an election Tories get in with 100 majority. Next election labour get in with 50. Therefore second election must be void. NO
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
The first referendum was a straight majority. Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
If there is a second vote it should be on the same basis.
The only legitimate purpose for a second ref is to tell parliament how to get out of the current deadlock. It would not be a rerun of the first vote.
People will be unhappy whatever we do, but at least with a second referendum we can make sure it is what the majority decide.
Elysium said:
Who is ignoring the 2016 vote?
Brexit has been rammed down everyone’s throats for almost 3 years. Instead of blaming everyone else how about answering the big question.
How do you expect parliament to choose between a stty deal, a calamitous no-deal or a delay and attempted renegotiation?
Which one of those honours the referendum?
Why can no leavers answer the question?
I think they have, repeatedly. Maybe, you just don't like the answer.Brexit has been rammed down everyone’s throats for almost 3 years. Instead of blaming everyone else how about answering the big question.
How do you expect parliament to choose between a s
tty deal, a calamitous no-deal or a delay and attempted renegotiation?Which one of those honours the referendum?
Why can no leavers answer the question?
Simple: The no deal is the only one which honours the leave decision. The May deal is not a Leave in any meaningful sense and to suggest otherwise insults everybody's intelligence, and we have been told endlessly that there will be no renegotiation, so it's not an option.
You think leaving without a WA will be calamitous. Others don't.
Nickgnome said:
It’s completely clear. You haven’t had many takers though.
Your first question. I’ll answer like this. We have an election Tories get in with 100 majority. Next election labour get in with 50. Therefore second election must be void. NO
You example is not representative to the original question, using your example if the Tories get 100 and Labour refuse to let them in due to 100 not been enough in Labour eyes so a second election is called resulting in Labour getting 50 should this result stand or be void ?Your first question. I’ll answer like this. We have an election Tories get in with 100 majority. Next election labour get in with 50. Therefore second election must be void. NO
I think anything other that a landslide victory for remain in a future referendum would cause more problems due to the first not getting delivered.
Elysium said:
steve_k said:
If it goes to a second referendum with the same options leave or remain would a win by remain with a result 51% v 49% be void due to the previous referendum result been a higher majority?
Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
The first referendum was a straight majority. Would the same remainers who are currently pushing for a second referendum ignore this result and ask for a third or say the job is done now the result has been overturned ?
If there is a second vote it should be on the same basis.
The only legitimate purpose for a second ref is to tell parliament how to get out of the current deadlock. It would not be a rerun of the first vote.
People will be unhappy whatever we do, but at least with a second referendum we can make sure it is what the majority decide.
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