How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 9)

[Leicester Loyal]

I really can't see us leaving with no deal, it won't be allowed.

[Helicopter123]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Richard Branson calls for new Brexit vote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47684529

Remain fanatic says vote again. What does Tony Blair say ?

Tony Blair has also called for a second referendum.

I'm surprised you have to ask though, as he has been consistent in making that call for sometime, as covered in the MSM.

Maybe this just hasn't reached your echo-chamber yet?

You should stick to gloating over the deaths of people who vote in a way you are unable to accept, as your sarcasm is lame.

Yet again I answer your question and you respond with baseless abuse.

It very much has a base, unless you've forgotten your earlier post today ?
You not so subtley gloating over the deaths of people who voted differently to you. Matter of record now, despite your edit.
Says quite a lot about the type of person you are, and the hatred it brought out in you . Kinda ironic in a way, considering your liking for posting others vitriol.

I merely pointed out how the electorate has changed since 2016.

[anonymous-user]

Helicopter123 said:

I merely pointed out how the electorate has changed since 2016.

Again? Do you actually do anything constructive rather than spend 16 hours a day posting bks ?

[Carl_Manchester]

crankedup said:

First time viewing for me on National tele, preparations for brexit by HM Government.

Government airshots have been going out on radio stations all weekend re: where to go for information once we leave the EU next week.

[psi310398]

wc98 said:

bhstewie said:

Allanv said:

The express seems to be fixated on aliens and the end of the world or their top bloke in the weather predicting doomsday, so leave or remain just do not read the express and go to the pub instead or the garden centre or possibly a rave but not the express unless you are a flat earther.

Brutal

but true

I think it is a ghastly rag, but please remind me of its circulation figures compared to those of the Guardian or Independent?

It is precisely this contemptuous attitude that helped Remain lose the referendum. It is doubtless a sad fact for many Remain supporters that Express readers have votes, but that's a universal franchise for you. My guess is that proportionately more of them exercise their right to vote, too.

[Otis Criblecoblis]

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Richard Branson calls for new Brexit vote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47684529

Remain fanatic says vote again. What does Tony Blair say ?

Tony Blair has also called for a second referendum.

I'm surprised you have to ask though, as he has been consistent in making that call for sometime, as covered in the MSM.

Maybe this just hasn't reached your echo-chamber yet?

You should stick to gloating over the deaths of people who vote in a way you are unable to accept, as your sarcasm is lame.

Yet again I answer your question and you respond with baseless abuse.

It very much has a base, unless you've forgotten your earlier post today ?
You not so subtley gloating over the deaths of people who voted differently to you. Matter of record now, despite your edit.
Says quite a lot about the type of person you are, and the hatred it brought out in you . Kinda ironic in a way, considering your liking for posting others vitriol.

I merely pointed out how the electorate has changed since 2016.

Your edit did when you got called on it. The original post was rather less subtle in gloating over the deaths.
You have the same bitter, nasty streak within you that you often post of others having when you like to taint Brexit voters.

[SeeFive]

wc98 said:

i am not an expert by any means (nick will be glad to know) but we have examples in recent and not so recent history of what is required to maintain a healthy balance in marine stocks. the 3 mile limit in scotland was a good example of this as it kept all the main estuaries free from mobile fishing gear, with a few exceptions like limited amounts of scallop fishing. uk estuaries to their outer limits are all nursery areas for a myriad of species , keep them free from modern mobile fishing gear and numbers of recruits of dozens of species will increase.

that would go down like a lead balloon in some areas but if we keep going like we are something along the lines of huge marine protected areas will eventually be brought in to the detriment of all.

the speed of reaction to changes in all areas needs to improve. recently we had the real time closure scheme in the north sea, whereby when a certain threshold of juvenile cod were being caught per hour in a particular area ,a report would be sent in to marine scotland and the area closed, for a month i think. at one point a few years back it was thousands of square miles closed off albeit on a voluntary basis.

investment in the science that supports informed decision making. it's not by luck the norwegians do fisheries management so well. they are right at the forefront of egg and larvae sampling and subsequent yearly recruitment. this allows them to plan for fishing effort instead of reacting to trends as we see in the eu.

i can see the arguments for and against exploitation of spawning aggregations of fish. for says it is more cost efficient and environmentally friendly to put less effort and fuel into catching more fish. the flip side is it generally depresses market prices when large quantities of a single species come to market at once and the very fish relied upon to produce subsequent years stocks are being caught just prior to that stock being created. i personally favour closing known spawning grounds/areas on spatial and time dependent basis.

a word i now don't like (used too often incorrectly in modern day political speak) is holistic. however marine management is a perfect example of where a holistic approach is needed. in a mixed fishery as we have in uk and eu waters, i think smart seasonal area closures,a 1 mile limit for mobile gear along with a uk wide (as opposed to scotland only at the moment) ban on single strand mono gill nets with possession alone being a crime, we could see a major improvement in the lot not only of uk salt water stocks but migratory species as well, while maintaining a healthy commercial sector.

doh, forgot the main bit. outside of the eu we have near limitless opportunity to introduce measures where we see fit that could improve things. it might take a while though as i am not sure how strong the departments are that would do the overseeing. would be a big change from rubber stamping eu regs to having to think and implement on our own. i am sure we would get there though.

Edited by wc98 on Sunday 24th March 19:12

I am sorry to to tell you that I have been away to make a fish risotto. But at least he and the crevettes didn’t die in vain and was supposedly caught the right, managed way.

Thanks very much for that information provided in response to my (and others) posts further on the thread that the one quoted. It is really interesting and has inspired me to look into the subject a lot more, as it is way more complex and fragmented than I had imagined around the whole UK it would appear. My brother helps manage a small freshwater fishery in Sussex and has always been a keen sport fisherman - he won’t eat what he catches at all. He has now retired early and fishes at least 3 times a week-fresh not salt. I very occasionally dangle a line off the back of the boat, but always return anything immediately - wouldn’t want to get the boat all smelly (jest - one fish over the side and it is goo city immediately).

It is clearly a moving target and currently not being managed too well by the legislators from what you say and what I hear. I hope that going forwads we get the opportunity to do better via a more adaptable UK fisheries policy suited to our island, it’s stock and associated challenges of balancing that with the industry and ecological changes.

As an aside, I pulled into Brixham last year after a very long time away from the town. I was surprised to see how the old tourist harbour had segregated off into two parts, one as it was minus the tourist friendly smelly trawler paraphernalia dotted around, and the other part, a new looking industrial scale trawler-only dock. I can’t imagine how this change could impact our natural resources without proper regulation.

Once again, many thanks for the info, a really interesting insight in an area I had not previously explored.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Tuna said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Tuna said:

"It's perfectly acceptable that an electorate could vote for a specific outcome and their elected representatives fail to deliver it. The solution is to remove that option from the table"

Nope, can't see anything wrong with that logic.

It is certainly not acceptable. It's an absolute shambles which has created divisions which will last for decades, and may yet be be the (richly deserved) death of both main political parties.

So you're saying now they should not have been allowed to vote for it?

If you go by what should have been the case then I would come back to the belief that we never should have been in in the first place.

But for where we were after the 2015 election with a Tory government committed to holding a referendum then I think "Leave" should have been planned and staffed officially according to what was within the control of the government. As it was/is ideas of what leaving means vary between something like the pre Maastricht EEC to attempting to pull the whole EU apart and retaking Calais. Most of which were never really on the table, and had little support from anyone in parliament.

Had it been a set policy before hand that Cameron would step down and for example Boris Johnson would become PM and would withdraw to trade under WTO rules then it would be much harder to argue that people didn't know what they were voting for.

The trouble is Cameron rightly judged that almost any well formed leave vote would be likely to win, and wrongly thought that he could beat a divided and unformed leave campaign.

I'm a staunch leaver and would prefer no deal, but it has become a fiasco, with the options available to parliament either the abysmal deal reluctantly negotiated by a PM who thinks we should remain, crashing out with no deal in just over a fortnight, or calling the whole thing off.

I also think that the whole business has highlighted very clearly something that has been festering away for years and should be addressed: the fact that both main parties are no longer fit for purpose. Both are wedded to progressive globalist policies which their traditional supporters despise, and both respond in turn by despising their traditional supporters.

[egor110]

Is calling the whole thing off a option though ?

Are the e.u really going to let us back in as if the last 2 years never happened ?

Why would they when they hold all the cards , hell why not demand they uk takes on the euro if they want to remain in the eu .

[A Winner Is You]

egor110 said:

Is calling the whole thing off a option though ?

Are the e.u really going to let us back in as if the last 2 years never happened ?

Why would they when they hold all the cards , hell why not demand they uk takes on the euro if they want to remain in the eu .

Not to worry, that means the situation would have changed. So the likes of Chopper and Trolleys will lead the campaign for another vote based on the fresh information we would have.

[Vaud]

egor110 said:

Is calling the whole thing off a option though ?

Are the e.u really going to let us back in as if the last 2 years never happened ?

Why would they when they hold all the cards , hell why not demand they uk takes on the euro if they want to remain in the eu .

Revocation of Article 50 would return us to status quo. No negotiation is required.

The would love it... it would support the Europe message.

[Nickgnome]

steve_k said:

Think about it for a second, a fishing boat will have a fully laden weight, what fills a fishing boat quicker taking all the fish caught home when emptying the nets or throwing half back?

Throwing fish back means catching and killing more fish to fill the boat.

Sadly your logic is completely flawed.

Hopefully if you discuss with some fisheries experts you will understand why.

[pingu393]

egor110 said:

Is calling the whole thing off a option though ?

Are the e.u really going to let us back in as if the last 2 years never happened ?

Why would they when they hold all the cards , hell why not demand they uk takes on the euro if they want to remain in the eu .

My understanding is that if we revoke A50, your 2nd para sums it up nicely.

Personally, I think it grossly unfair as we would have put them to great expense and inconvenience, but that's another thing.

I don't even think there is anything legally binding that says we can't revoke tomorrow and re-invoke the next day. There is a political declaration saying that would be a jolly poor show, but it's not legally binding.


I'd be gobsmacked if we leave and then re-join, membership of the Euro was not a condition of re-entry.

[Crackie]

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Helicopter123 said:

Richard Branson calls for new Brexit vote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47684529

Remain fanatic says vote again. What does Tony Blair say ?

Tony Blair has also called for a second referendum.

I'm surprised you have to ask though, as he has been consistent in making that call for sometime, as covered in the MSM.

Maybe this just hasn't reached your echo-chamber yet?

You should stick to gloating over the deaths of people who vote in a way you are unable to accept, as your sarcasm is lame.

Yet again I answer your question and you respond with baseless abuse.

It very much has a base, unless you've forgotten your earlier post today ?
You not so subtley gloating over the deaths of people who voted differently to you. Matter of record now, despite your edit.
Says quite a lot about the type of person you are, and the hatred it brought out in you . Kinda ironic in a way, considering your liking for posting others vitriol.

I merely pointed out how the electorate has changed since 2016.

If it was your intention to merely point out the change since 2016 then your lack of emotional intelligence and compassion beggars belief.

This change in the electorate since the ref you keep highlighting, why do you think it the polls now show a smaller gap now between leave and remain than there was in 2016?

[pingu393]

The whole assumption of changing demographic is flawed, anyway.

Most youngsters are pro-change revolutionaries. If they just grew older and never changed their minds, we would have a Che Guevara clone president-for-life at the helm.

Fortunately, most do grow up as well as old

[psi310398]

Vaud said:

Revocation of Article 50 would return us to status quo. No negotiation is required.

The would love it... it would support the Europe message.

Actually, I suspect they might dread it.

In the FT Magazine this weekend Simon Kuper has a really interesting article (The EU’s enemy within: Eurosceptic Remainers - sadly behind the paywall).

It suggests that the EU is facing really disruptive challenges from the likes of Orban and Salvini and others who suck at the EU teat but pick and choose what EU policies and laws to follow, not to mention the phalanx of Eurosceptic MEPs likely to arrive shortly.

Almost enough to persuade me that revoking A50 is a good idea.

But the UK inside the tent, pissing in, is not, I think, what Junker and co are dreaming of.

[isaldiri]

SeeFive said:

Piha said:

Weren't bass numbers at critically low numbers in 2014?

If it concerns you more than mobile roaming or FoM etc, then maybe you should have voted leave.

The video below is a direct result of EU quotas, when the fish is already caught and simply thrown away dead when it could be used as food.

What a waste. Some might say that just that catch could keep an African village alive for a while. Bloody EU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTBObPhFBhs

The slight problem with blaming the EU/CFP for the discards is......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47171429

it was actually amended to be phased out years ago (starting in 2013) and for all the noise that the UK made about it to blame the EU for the policy of discards, they haven't exactly been at the forefront of putting their own house in order. That's not to say the CFP or other EU nations aren't flagrantly ignoring it (just look at the mini sized monkfish/red mullet etc found in any spanish/italian market) but the idea that the UK will necessarily manage it's own fisheries better is very optimistic imo.

[wc98]

Nickgnome said:

steve_k said:

Think about it for a second, a fishing boat will have a fully laden weight, what fills a fishing boat quicker taking all the fish caught home when emptying the nets or throwing half back?

Throwing fish back means catching and killing more fish to fill the boat.

Sadly your logic is completely flawed.

Hopefully if you discuss with some fisheries experts you will understand why.

if you have discussed it with said experts i would be interested to know. i have spoken to one or two and on the topic of discards you don't hear much support for them.

[wc98]

isaldiri said:

The slight problem with blaming the EU/CFP for the discards is......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47171429

it was actually amended to be phased out years ago (starting in 2013) and for all the noise that the UK made about it to blame the EU for the policy of discards, they haven't exactly been at the forefront of putting their own house in order. That's not to say the CFP or other EU nations aren't flagrantly ignoring it (just look at the mini sized monkfish/red mullet etc found in any spanish/italian market) but the idea that the UK will necessarily manage it's own fisheries better is very optimistic imo.

they are making the mistake that the discard "ban" solves anything. it only changes the place the fish are discarded . days at sea along with real time monitoring of what comes over the gunnels are the main two control options. seasonal area closures and ongoing selective fishing gear development programs will make further gains.

[Crackie]