How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 10)
Discussion
Squiddly Diddly said:
amusingduck said:
That's (one reason) why I think remainers aren't realistic about the EU and its downsides.
What is the realistic argument against the EU's willingness to ruin a member state's economy for the benefit of the bigger countries banks?
This isn't a virtue signalling "Remainers don't care about Greeks!" argument, I don't care about Greek people. Neither does the EU evidently, and that is what concerns me. The people are treated as an obstacle to progession, rather than the family they protect.
Are you saying the EU should not have bailed out Greece?What is the realistic argument against the EU's willingness to ruin a member state's economy for the benefit of the bigger countries banks?
This isn't a virtue signalling "Remainers don't care about Greeks!" argument, I don't care about Greek people. Neither does the EU evidently, and that is what concerns me. The people are treated as an obstacle to progession, rather than the family they protect.
Was Greece forced to accept the bail out?
Was Greece forced to accept the E.U. designed austerity package which forced the poorest in Greece into poverty?
It’s not the heats that matter, it’s the final.
Squiddly Diddly said:
amusingduck said:
That's (one reason) why I think remainers aren't realistic about the EU and its downsides.
What is the realistic argument against the EU's willingness to ruin a member state's economy for the benefit of the bigger countries banks?
This isn't a virtue signalling "Remainers don't care about Greeks!" argument, I don't care about Greek people. Neither does the EU evidently, and that is what concerns me. The people are treated as an obstacle to progession, rather than the family they protect.
Are you saying the EU should not have bailed out Greece?What is the realistic argument against the EU's willingness to ruin a member state's economy for the benefit of the bigger countries banks?
This isn't a virtue signalling "Remainers don't care about Greeks!" argument, I don't care about Greek people. Neither does the EU evidently, and that is what concerns me. The people are treated as an obstacle to progession, rather than the family they protect.
Was Greece forced to accept the bail out?
Mark Blyth said:
You couldnt tell your public, right, you couldnt come out and say "what we're really doing is bailing out Commerzbank - how do you feel about that?". No, we have to invent this narrative about greeks being lazy and so on and so forth, so you poison the well of european politics because you cant tell the truth about a bank bailout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uNs2byq1Uc&t=2mWhole video is worth watching, he compares the US "too big to fail" with the EU's "too big to bail" banks.
SeeFive said:
Was the E.U. forced to break their fiscal rules to allow a basket case Greece to join to a potential detriment of the other members?
Was Greece forced to accept the E.U. designed austerity package which forced the poorest in Greece into poverty?
It’s not the heats that matter, it’s the final.
Did the EU force Greece to join the euro?Was Greece forced to accept the E.U. designed austerity package which forced the poorest in Greece into poverty?
It’s not the heats that matter, it’s the final.
Greece is responsible for their financial troubles, not the EU.
Squiddly Diddly said:
Did the EU force Greece to join the euro?
Greece are responsible for their financial troubles, not the EU.
The EU has less responsibility for a whole country adopting their currency than a UK bank has to make sure you can afford to pay back the loan you want? Greece are responsible for their financial troubles, not the EU.
Yep, pretty much
I keep hearing Greece mentioned and I keep out of the conversation because I don't understand it quite honestly.
Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a s
tload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?
So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a s
tload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
Squiddly Diddly said:
SeeFive said:
Was the E.U. forced to break their fiscal rules to allow a basket case Greece to join to a potential detriment of the other members?
Was Greece forced to accept the E.U. designed austerity package which forced the poorest in Greece into poverty?
It’s not the heats that matter, it’s the final.
Did the EU force Greece to join the euro?Was Greece forced to accept the E.U. designed austerity package which forced the poorest in Greece into poverty?
It’s not the heats that matter, it’s the final.
Greece is responsible for their financial troubles, not the EU.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to join. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to lie about its economy to do so.
The responsibility for the consequences of doing so are Greece's.
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Not a great fan of audits the EU. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Even the MEP's expences of €4,600 per month is unacountable,and has been judged
to be kept secret.
Squiddly Diddly said:
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to join. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to lie about its economy to do so.
The responsibility for the consequences of doing so are Greece's.
Both Greece and the EU are complicit, they both got what they wanted.
Squiddly Diddly said:
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to join. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to lie about its economy to do so.
The responsibility for the consequences of doing so are Greece's.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I keep hearing Greece mentioned and I keep out of the conversation because I don't understand it quite honestly.
Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a stload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?
So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
Definitely not unbiased, but it seems you already know the EU narrative Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a s
tload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
Yanis Varoufakis (Greek Finance Minister at the time) Explains Greece's Financial Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UOlJsmvwxs
Squiddly Diddly said:
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to join. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to lie about its economy to do so.
The responsibility for the consequences of doing so are Greece's.
the article said:
Politics also helped Greece join the euro in 2001. Although it was not until 2004 that Athens admitted entry figures had been fudged, the dodgy numbers were an open secret in Brussels. Many other countries were doing the same, albeit on a smaller scale. Only later when Greece buckled under the weight of its debts did European grandees say it had been “a mistake” to allow Greece to join the currency.
Other sources are available saying the same thing, in many cases with far stronger language as we progressed from the date of the article. In latter days, even the IMF held their hands up.Squiddly Diddly said:
Garvin said:
If this is so important and the consequences of getting it wrong so dire then why are the ROI and EU effectively 'weaponising' it and refusing any sort of compromise? Sorting this out as a bespoke agreement with UK is surely more important to ROI and EU as well as UK than just sticking to existing EU 'rules' which, to be frank, have been 'adjusted' many times in the past when it suits.
They have, it's called the backstop to be utilised should the UK:EU free trade area not come to fruition in time.The back stop actually works against what you and others think it does and if it comes to pass will just continue the current problem the UK is seeing. The back stop is something dreamt up by either simpletons or by those who are deliberately trying to prevent UK leaving - take your pick.
I would contend that removal of the back stop will be a much greater incentive for both sides to find a workable and mutually acceptable soluition in the time allowed, even if that means the EU compromising on its rules which, lets face it, have been compromised many times in the past when convenient to do so and over much less important issues..
gooner1 said:
Squiddly Diddly said:
SeeFive said:
It should not have been possible for Greece to joint the Euro by the EU’s own rules. The E.U. rules were there for a purpose, to prevent exactly the Greece type of outcome.
No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to join. No the E.U. didn’t force Greece to join the Euro. But as stated, Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro by the rule breaking EC.
They broke their own rules. They knew the facts. They are complicit in Greece’s problem by breaking their own rules to allow it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/gree...
Greece chose to lie about its economy to do so.
The responsibility for the consequences of doing so are Greece's.
holes who precipitated the GFC wrote a greek tragedy into the eurozone.amusingduck said:
Definitely not unbiased, but it seems you already know the EU narrative
Yanis Varoufakis (Greek Finance Minister at the time) Explains Greece's Financial Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UOlJsmvwxs
Thank you, I've seen and heard him a few times and whenever I have, from what I can remember, he's always made a lot of sense to me.Yanis Varoufakis (Greek Finance Minister at the time) Explains Greece's Financial Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UOlJsmvwxs
Garvin said:
It's been covered many times - this does not motivate/incentivise the EU to 'play ball' as the back stop just locks UK into the EU which, just in case it passed you by, is what the EU want i.e. UK not to leave the EU. It also does not motivate/incentivise the Remainers on the UK side who, in case this has also passed you by, do not want to leave the EU. BTW, specifically for you, this is why the current WA/PD does not guarantee the UK leaving the EU.
The back stop actually works against what you and others think it does and if it comes to pass will just continue the current problem the UK is seeing. The back stop is something dreamt up by either simpletons or by those who are deliberately trying to prevent UK leaving - take your pick.
I would contend that removal of the back stop will be a much greater incentive for both sides to find a workable and mutually acceptable soluition in the time allowed, even if that means the EU compromising on its rules which, lets face it, have been compromised many times in the past when convenient to do so and over much less important issues..
I disagree with everything you have stated.The back stop actually works against what you and others think it does and if it comes to pass will just continue the current problem the UK is seeing. The back stop is something dreamt up by either simpletons or by those who are deliberately trying to prevent UK leaving - take your pick.
I would contend that removal of the back stop will be a much greater incentive for both sides to find a workable and mutually acceptable soluition in the time allowed, even if that means the EU compromising on its rules which, lets face it, have been compromised many times in the past when convenient to do so and over much less important issues..
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I keep hearing Greece mentioned and I keep out of the conversation because I don't understand it quite honestly.
Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a stload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?
So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
I see you've had Varoufakis posted, but in the absolute simplest terms:Could someone give me an unbiased rundown or link on how the Greece situation is the fault of the EU?
My very limited understanding is that they had issues with tax being almost a voluntary thing and got into a s
tload of debt and the EU bailed them out but with massive strings attached?So, take the EU out of the equation.
What would have happened?
Greece acted like it always had. Voluntary taxation and ridiculous public sector retirement terms, etc.
Difference is, it didn't have the drachma.
By adopting the euro, a few things happened - it lost control of the exchange rate (and the euro is massively stronger than the drachma) and it opened up credit.
So Greece couldn't do what it has always done - default or print loads of money to pay the debt. The debt was always smaller, as the risks of the drachma were well known.
Which means Greece couldn't bounce back like it always had before - by offering stupidly cheap sunny holidays to 'rich' Western Europeans through a ridiculously weak currency.
That is what lead to the problem.
The kick in the nuts for the Greek economy was not being allowed to write off some debt in a restructuring package. Varoufakis may annoy many people but everyone surely knows it was the only way their economy could have recovered in a reasonable time frame. It's not about left or right wing views of the world and far more about being honest about what was done and why. The treatment of Greece was nothing short of shameful.
The kick in the nuts for the Greek economy was not being allowed to write off some debt in a restructuring package. Varoufakis may annoy many people but everyone surely knows it was the only way their economy could have recovered in a reasonable time frame. It's not about left or right wing views of the world and far more about being honest about what was done and why. The treatment of Greece was nothing short of shameful.
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