How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 10)

[Mrr T]

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

While most FTA and some TFA include mutual acceptance of standards.

This does not mean the countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries.

The furthest most FTA will go is to agree to implement international standards.

Wrong. Or at least oversimplified. For instance the USA has mutual recognition agreements with Canada and Australia & NZ. These are not international standards.

You do understand mutual acceptance of standards does not mean countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries?

[s2art]

Mrr T said:

s2art said:

Mrr T said:

While most FTA and some TFA include mutual acceptance of standards.

This does not mean the countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries.

The furthest most FTA will go is to agree to implement international standards.

Wrong. Or at least oversimplified. For instance the USA has mutual recognition agreements with Canada and Australia & NZ. These are not international standards.

You do understand mutual acceptance of standards does not mean countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries?

Try reading what I wrote.

[PositronicRay]

Mrr T said:

s2art said:

PositronicRay said:

paulrockliffe said:

FiF said:

Don't forget A customs union can cover as little as one product including mutual recognition of standards.

Sure, but the reality is that there's no point in being in a Customs Union for a single product. Won't happen. Mutual recognition of standards isn't on the table. Won't happen. Any form of Customs Union with the EU will come with single market rules that go far beyond what is necessary, appropriate, or acceptable. And the rules won't be being set by the UK.

So I'm happy that there are no realistic circumstances where we have some form Customs alignment with the EU that is compatible with the vote to leave and my own red lines can stay.

Isn't a mutual recognition of standards not a good thing then?

Yes, in general. And an increasing part of FTA's around the world. The EU refuses it so far.

While most FTA and some TFA include mutual acceptance of standards.

This does not mean the countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries.

The furthest most FTA will go is to agree to implement international standards.

So mutallly agreed stds are a good thing generally just not a thing we want.

[C4ME]

^^^ Not quite sure what Corbyn has got to do with the mess May has created ...

[NoNeed]

C4ME said:

^^^ Not quite sure what Corbyn has got to do with the mess May has created ...

She would never have got this far with good effective opposition.

[anonymous-user]

C4ME said:

^^^ Not quite sure what Corbyn has got to do with the mess May has created ...

Do you think he would have done a better job?

May and Corbyn are fantastic for the Brexit party.

[C4ME]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

C4ME said:

^^^ Not quite sure what Corbyn has got to do with the mess May has created ...

Do you think he would have done a better job?

May and Corbyn are fantastic for the Brexit party.

I am making no assessment of Corbyn but Labour do not have the votes to have any real power in this parliament. They have been excluded by May from all stages of Brexit to date. So we have a situation where May has a small majority, has a Brexit deal the DUP will not vote for (thereby loosing her majority) and Labour, the SNP, and Liberals know all they have to do is sit tight and keep voting against it for the bigger picture to come into play. They are doing exactly what they should be doing.

[abzmike]

C4ME said:

I am making no assessment of Corbyn but Labour do not have the votes to have any real power in this parliament. They have been excluded by May from all stages of Brexit to date. So we have a situation where May has a small majority, has a Brexit deal the DUP will not vote for (thereby loosing her majority) and Labour, the SNP, and Liberals know all they have to do is sit tight and keep voting against it for the bigger picture to come into play. They are doing exactly what they should be doing.

Half of May’s own party won’t vote for it, never mind the opposition.

[anonymous-user]

C4ME said:

I am making no assessment of Corbyn but Labour do not have the votes to have any real power in this parliament. They have been excluded by May from all stages of Brexit to date. So we have a situation where May has a small majority, has a Brexit deal the DUP will not vote for (thereby loosing her majority) and Labour, the SNP, and Liberals know all they have to do is sit tight and keep voting against it for the bigger picture to come into play. They are doing exactly what they should be doing.

And this is exactly why people will be voting for the Brexit party or UKIP.

Hopefully not UKIP.

[Randy Winkman]

abzmike said:

C4ME said:

I am making no assessment of Corbyn but Labour do not have the votes to have any real power in this parliament. They have been excluded by May from all stages of Brexit to date. So we have a situation where May has a small majority, has a Brexit deal the DUP will not vote for (thereby loosing her majority) and Labour, the SNP, and Liberals know all they have to do is sit tight and keep voting against it for the bigger picture to come into play. They are doing exactly what they should be doing.

Half of May’s own party won’t vote for it, never mind the opposition.

Exactly. It makes no odds who the opposition are.

[wc98]

bhstewie said:

So on the first day back having just had over a week off immediately after securing a six month Brexit extension the two main news items around MP's returning to the HoC seem to be:

• More infighting about removing Teresa May by changing Tory party rules if required
• Tabling a no confidence motion in John Bercow

Just utterly bizarre that those are their priorities.

fking crazy,almost like they are oblivious to the fact a lot more people are actually scrutinising what they are doing in parliament these days.

[C4ME]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

C4ME said:

I am making no assessment of Corbyn but Labour do not have the votes to have any real power in this parliament. They have been excluded by May from all stages of Brexit to date. So we have a situation where May has a small majority, has a Brexit deal the DUP will not vote for (thereby loosing her majority) and Labour, the SNP, and Liberals know all they have to do is sit tight and keep voting against it for the bigger picture to come into play. They are doing exactly what they should be doing.

And this is exactly why people will be voting for the Brexit party or UKIP.

Hopefully not UKIP.

I think the Brexit party will do very well as it is the issue everyone seems to care about most and if you are for Brexit where else do you put your vote at the moment. UKIP are done as a political force I reckon but we shall see.

[anonymous-user]

C4ME said:

I think the Brexit party will do very well as it is the issue everyone seems to care about most and if you are for Brexit where else do you put your vote at the moment. UKIP are done as a political force I reckon but we shall see.

I hope you are right about UKIP

[anonymous-user]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

C4ME said:

I think the Brexit party will do very well as it is the issue everyone seems to care about most and if you are for Brexit where else do you put your vote at the moment. UKIP are done as a political force I reckon but we shall see.

I hope you are right about UKIP

He is wrong. Most people aren't aware of the current UKIP shift, more people are aware of what Labour has turned into.

So don't expect anything other than a UKIP resurgence.

[anonymous-user]

bh Stewie's post about the first 24 hours back reminds me of something I read many years ago

Goes back to the days of the Callaghan government. the Labour bods were trying to rally round a Barbara Castle thing called I think times of strife. Basically an agreement between the unions and government. this being a reaction/ solution to the unrest that was causing major issues.
It all seemed a wheeze …………………
Unfortunately Joe Public was thinking along completely different lines and had just about had enough.

It is a bit like that in that you now have all parties appearing to be out of touch with the public
It is like a cozy little club with the politicians and the news media all in it and we just looking in
Another thing that surprises me is how the party leaders appear to have been bending over backwards to appear with this young Norwegian whatever climate change action teenager. Yet last week when the protestors were wreaking havoc I can barely remember any leader making much comment


They just seem to be in their own worlds these days

[Squiddly Diddly]

C4ME said:

I think May is the reason. I was pondering the other day "what would be the perfect deal to negotiate with the EU that would be impossible to pass in Parliament whilst appearing to want Brexit". And it is her deal. A stroke of genius IMO making it impossible for the DUP to support whilst also using up all the available time and goodwill from the EU so making renegotiation impossible.

A different politician and some straight talking at the start would have helped. - "work with us EU to solve the NI border issue or there will be a hard border" so making it both our problem to solve for example.

Pure fantasy.

And you forget, other than not wishing to leave the EU with no deal, parliament cannot agree on any form of deal. It would not have mattered what May brought back.

[Helicopter123]

Squiddly Diddly said:

Pure fantasy.

And you forget, other than not wishing to leave the EU with no deal, parliament cannot agree on any form of deal. It would not have mattered what May brought back.

I believe that if more people had understood, and accepted, that the utter fantasy of a no deal Brexit had been taken off the table some time ago, that we would have already left.

[Piha]

Helicopter123 said:

Squiddly Diddly said:

Pure fantasy.

And you forget, other than not wishing to leave the EU with no deal, parliament cannot agree on any form of deal. It would not have mattered what May brought back.

I believe that if more people had understood, and accepted, that the utter fantasy of a no deal Brexit had been taken off the table some time ago, that we would have already left.

Yep.

However, I think the tory ERG ultras would need an enormous amount of convincing.....

[Helicopter123]

Piha said:

Helicopter123 said:

Squiddly Diddly said:

Pure fantasy.

And you forget, other than not wishing to leave the EU with no deal, parliament cannot agree on any form of deal. It would not have mattered what May brought back.

I believe that if more people had understood, and accepted, that the utter fantasy of a no deal Brexit had been taken off the table some time ago, that we would have already left.

Yep.

However, I think the tory ERG ultras would need an enormous amount of convincing.....

They are the 'useful idiots' that have this far kept us in the EU.

[Mrr T]

PositronicRay said:

Mrr T said:

s2art said:

PositronicRay said:

paulrockliffe said:

FiF said:

Don't forget A customs union can cover as little as one product including mutual recognition of standards.

Sure, but the reality is that there's no point in being in a Customs Union for a single product. Won't happen. Mutual recognition of standards isn't on the table. Won't happen. Any form of Customs Union with the EU will come with single market rules that go far beyond what is necessary, appropriate, or acceptable. And the rules won't be being set by the UK.

So I'm happy that there are no realistic circumstances where we have some form Customs alignment with the EU that is compatible with the vote to leave and my own red lines can stay.

Isn't a mutual recognition of standards not a good thing then?

Yes, in general. And an increasing part of FTA's around the world. The EU refuses it so far.

While most FTA and some TFA include mutual acceptance of standards.

This does not mean the countries mutually agree to accept the standards of other countries.

The furthest most FTA will go is to agree to implement international standards.

So mutallly agreed stds are a good thing generally just not a thing we want.

Mutual acceptance of standards confusingly does not mean counties accept each other standards, but that they mutually allow standards testing and certification. So if 2 countries have a FTA or TFA containing such an agreement a company in one country looking to export to the other can get any products certified they met the other countries standards in their own country. This is much more efficient than the exporting company having to get the certification done in another country.

For example the EU has such an agreement with the US although it does not have a full FTA.

David Davies brexit plan was full mutual acceptance of all standards between the UK and the EU. This was never going to work and was rejected by the EU. Not sure it even met the leave teams red line on taking back control.