How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 10)
Discussion
wisbech said:
Will this be a realignment from left/ right wing to populist/ elitism?
Not sure !!! I suppose a lot depends on whether or not the tories want to re align themselves with the working middle classes , aspiration and being sensible centre right or sugar taxes ,kissing the EU's arse ,f
king up our defence ,law and order and allowing big business and the banks to ride roughshod ...If its as the latter i.e. business as usual then Mr Farage is going to do rather well ...
wisbech said:
Will this be a realignment from left/ right wing to populist/ elitism?
Whatever you want to call it, I think they're fked.I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
Elysium said:
He is saying that we have no power in these mini-agreements - so we simply end up with anything the EU has to offer. He is right. It doesn't matter if you call it a deal or a diktat.
Healthy negotiations/discussions/deals/call them what you will are not about winning and losing. They are about funding a mutually beneficially and agreeable position. If what is tabled makes sense, who cares?
Murph7355 said:
Elysium said:
He is saying that we have no power in these mini-agreements - so we simply end up with anything the EU has to offer. He is right. It doesn't matter if you call it a deal or a diktat.
Healthy negotiations/discussions/deals/call them what you will are not about winning and losing. They are about funding a mutually beneficially and agreeable position. If what is tabled makes sense, who cares?
We might be on WTO terms alone for 10 years and we need to know that the wheels will keep turning in that time. Not just for the first six months.
Guy Verhofstadt 
Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whatever you want to call it, I think they're fked.
I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
Apologys for stating the bleeding obvious, but it isn't just Conservative voters feeling thatked.I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
way. And apart from Farage and TBP , no party is even hinting at anything new.
Strange how it's taken what is possibly the death knoll of our main parties, and Brexit of course, to make Politics really begin to come alive in the these Islands, and for our politicians
to be held accountable for both their actions and inactions.
gooner1 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whatever you want to call it, I think they're fked.
I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
Apologys for stating the bleeding obvious, but it isn't just Conservative voters feeling thatked.I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
way. And apart from Farage and TBP , no party is even hinting at anything new.
Strange how it's taken what is possibly the death knoll of our main parties, and Brexit of course, to make Politics really begin to come alive in the these Islands, and for our politicians
to be held accountable for both their actions and inactions.
Some of the 'old school' seem to assume that this is just a blip and everything will soon be back as it was. I rather doubt it !
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Guy Verhofstadt
Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
If he's got sand in his vagina, we're probably doing the right thing.Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
Elysium said:
I entirely agree, but that in a nutshell is why short term transitional arrangements are not enough.
We might be on WTO terms alone for 10 years and we need to know that the wheels will keep turning in that time. Not just for the first six months.
This is a weird protectionist 'Stockholm Syndrome' view that the only way you can trade well is if you force the other side to make concessions. Not only is it demonstrably not benefiting the EU trade bloc compared with other global trading blocs, it also flies in the basic economic fact that trying to force the other side to do something restrictive is a lot harder (and less effective) than doing something positive on your own behalf.We might be on WTO terms alone for 10 years and we need to know that the wheels will keep turning in that time. Not just for the first six months.
If we are on WTO terms, and outside of the EU protectionist controls (ie. a/the CU), we have the ability to directly control our imports. We import massively more than we export, so that's the thing that will best influence our economy - and most directly benefit the consumer.
Anything the EU applies to restrict our trade into Europe hurts Europe, and European consumers and businesses directly.
Anything we do to free our trade into the UK from the rest of the world benefits us.
It's as simple as that. Why on earth do you think that handing over control to the largest side of our economic throughput in order to avoid a vague threat that the other side will self-harm makes any sense?
This is exactly what was modelled by the German economic institute and it clearly demonstrated that having our hands on the wheel (internal controls over trading conditions into the UK) is hugely more beneficial than maintaining external concessions on our exports.
Mothersruin said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Guy Verhofstadt
Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
If he's got sand in his vagina, we're probably doing the right thing.Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Russia will destroy the European Union, according to a chief Brexit negotiator in Brussels.
Guy Verhofstadt has told The Times the rise of populism and the far-right could bring down the Union by 2024 if they cannot be replaced by a 'new vision of the EU'.
The former Belgian Prime Minister, 66, compared Boris Johnson to France's Marine Le Pen, as he emerged as the favourite to replace Theresa May.
Mr Verhofstadt slammed his regular European Parliament enemy Nigel Farage, claiming he secretly doesn't want Brexit to happen as it would make him irrelevant.
His scathing attack also included accusations that Russia has been manipulating the European elections - 'like they did with the Brexit referendum'.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Whatever you want to call it, I think they're fked.
I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
I agree that they are offering nothing right now. I wonder whether this is a by product of the Fixed Term Parliament Act. ked.I'm a normal bloke, voted remain, doing alright for myself.
Can anyone tell me other than "to keep Corbyn out" (and I wouldn't vote for him) why the hell I would vote Conservative?
They seem to be offering literally nothing. It's odd to watch.
In the past a Govt had the option of calling a snap general election from a position of strength to get an extension of its term. Now that’s a less ready option. I think Govts look at things in five year cycles. The Tories in 2022 will offer something massively different to their present position, I’d guess.
Had May not called the disaster election in 2017 we would be looking at a GE in about 12m. And in retrospect avoiding that was a pretty shrewd move even if the cost has been high. They might have a chance in 2022.
Jimboka said:
i can understand someone questioning an mp robustly on a specific issue, but that moron didn't even know who he was or what he does for a job !Elysium said:
I entirely agree, but that in a nutshell is why short term transitional arrangements are not enough.
We might be on WTO terms alone for 10 years and we need to know that the wheels will keep turning in that time. Not just for the first six months.
i'm sorry but i believe your argument (that i was fairly accepting of at one point even if i didn't agree) has now gone beyond the pale. in or out ,no one knows what the next ten years may bring in any sector.We might be on WTO terms alone for 10 years and we need to know that the wheels will keep turning in that time. Not just for the first six months.
necessity is the mother of all invention, the short term transitional deals are more than ample to begin with. if push came to shove i have no doubt they would be extended and extended again if required, it's not like both our government and eu don't have form for this. it looks to me like you are looking for all the i's to be dotted and t's crossed on every facet of our future arrangements with the eu before we should attempt to leave at all and i am afraid that is just not practical.
there will known unknowns as well as a few unknown unknowns as we progress post eu membership, it is physically impossible to deal with these until they manifest themselves.
Greg66 said:
Had May not called the disaster election in 2017 we would be looking at a GE in about 12m. And in retrospect avoiding that was a pretty shrewd move even if the cost has been high. They might have a chance in 2022.
Christ Almighty! Are you saying you want this bunch of inept, dishonest, venal, self-interested clowns back in gubbermint? This is why our country is fked. No-one wants change.deadslow said:
Greg66 said:
Had May not called the disaster election in 2017 we would be looking at a GE in about 12m. And in retrospect avoiding that was a pretty shrewd move even if the cost has been high. They might have a chance in 2022.
Christ Almighty! Are you saying you want this bunch of inept, dishonest, venal, self-interested clowns back in gubbermint? This is why our country is fked. No-one wants change.The real alternatives. Not the pie-in-the-sky alternatives beloved of fantasists on PH.
Greg66 said:
I agree that they are offering nothing right now. I wonder whether this is a by product of the Fixed Term Parliament Act.
In the past a Govt had the option of calling a snap general election from a position of strength to get an extension of its term. Now that’s a less ready option. I think Govts look at things in five year cycles. The Tories in 2022 will offer something massively different to their present position, I’d guess.
Had May not called the disaster election in 2017 we would be looking at a GE in about 12m. And in retrospect avoiding that was a pretty shrewd move even if the cost has been high. They might have a chance in 2022.
What though?In the past a Govt had the option of calling a snap general election from a position of strength to get an extension of its term. Now that’s a less ready option. I think Govts look at things in five year cycles. The Tories in 2022 will offer something massively different to their present position, I’d guess.
Had May not called the disaster election in 2017 we would be looking at a GE in about 12m. And in retrospect avoiding that was a pretty shrewd move even if the cost has been high. They might have a chance in 2022.
That's the piece that right now I don't see especially forthcoming from anyone.
It's pretty bloody depressing.
Its now nice and simple.
The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
The Hypno-Toad said:
Its now nice and simple.
The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
Not sure about anarchy. Not sure many breiters would know how to do anarchy. I expect they will stick to what they know and complain about everyone and blame every one else.The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
Mrr T said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
Its now nice and simple.
The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
Not sure about anarchy. Not sure many breiters would know how to do anarchy. I expect they will stick to what they know and complain about everyone and blame every one else.The Parliamentary Conservative Party now have approx 17 hours to stand any chance of saving face in the Euro election by getting May out. When the results have come in the joke is I think she’ll be gone anyway. But by then the damage will be done and long term there probably won’t be any coming back.
So not only will Brexit drag on and on but we won’t have a party that can gain an overall parliamentary majority for years to come and we can look forward to yearly elections as sparsely organised coalitions rise and fall.
Anarchy for the UK, it’s coming sometime and maybe.....
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