Scrapping Age Related Benefits

[Nickgnome]

crankedup said:

Easy to say isn’t it, but less than easy in practice. More so now when we see the old established world of work changing rapidly and drastically. Zero hours, no formal work contracts for employees, flexible careers, no more job for life. Under these circumstances even with the current arrangements,introduced by Government, that every worker must contribute into a personal pension scheme the new working arrangements make it impossible for workers to be able to be confident that whatever sum of money they save each month, a pension that sustains a basic standard of living is disappearing over the horizon.

That’s what deregulation does for you together with a woefully low minimum wage.

The current arrangement is unsustainable but no party will have the courage to face the issue head on.

[CoolHands]

Nickgnome said:

Expecting others to pay more to pensioners is wrong and unsustainable.

The percentage of pensioners in the population is increasing and expecting the working population to take up the burden of pension and health care is unfair and unrealistic.

Just cos you say it, doesn’t make it true. Who says it’s unsustainable? I say it isn’t. Who says the pensioners population is increasing? I believe life expectancy has actually levelled off, it’s not a linear increase from the the 1800s onwards. We won’t be 200 years old in 2050. Also, by increasing the pension age to 68 they have effectively reduced the number of pensioners by a vast amount.

[Countdown]

CoolHands said:

Just cos you say it, doesn’t make it true. Who says it’s unsustainable? I say it isn’t. Who says the pensioners population is increasing? I believe life expectancy has actually levelled off, it’s not a linear increase from the the 1800s onwards. We won’t be 200 years old in 2050. Also, by increasing the pension age to 68 they have effectively reduced the number of pensioners by a vast amount.

Have a look at how much your LA is paying towards care costs for OAPs. It's not sustainable.

[northwick]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

How much out of every £1 do you think the average pensioner will spend? I reckon that whilst it will help some avoid relative poverty most will just end up saving it and therefore it is a terrible economic policy (unless you are happy to defer the benefits until inheritance).

[CoolHands]

Don’t forget working population is going up all the time too so by 2040 they’re will be 4 million more people living here (net migration) to offset the supposed 4 million extra pensioners, which I don’t particularly believe anyway.

Life expectancy growth has stopped:

“Life expectancy in the UK has stopped improving for the first time since 1982, when figures began.

Women's life expectancy from birth remains 82.9 years and for men it is 79.2, the figures from the Office for National Statistics, for 2015-17, show.

In some parts of the UK, life expectancy has even decreased.”

Which means on average the pension paid out will be £120k for men. How much do we pay in after 40+ years working?

Edited by CoolHands on Wednesday 8th May 19:52

Edited by CoolHands on Wednesday 8th May 19:57

[Drumroll]

Nickgnome said:

Going forward everyone should be forced to save sufficient for their own retirement.

The problem with this is when do you make that decision? It would be a sea change for many people. To the extent that people would have to look at what they earn. (what their earning potential was) So you realistically could only bring it in for those who are currently 16 (ignoring all the legislation that would need to be made) What happens to all those who can't work. (not talking about those who won't work) but those who take care of relatives, those who are disabled etc.

[crankedup]

Nickgnome said:

crankedup said:

Easy to say isn’t it, but less than easy in practice. More so now when we see the old established world of work changing rapidly and drastically. Zero hours, no formal work contracts for employees, flexible careers, no more job for life. Under these circumstances even with the current arrangements,introduced by Government, that every worker must contribute into a personal pension scheme the new working arrangements make it impossible for workers to be able to be confident that whatever sum of money they save each month, a pension that sustains a basic standard of living is disappearing over the horizon.

That’s what deregulation does for you together with a woefully low minimum wage.

The current arrangement is unsustainable but no party will have the courage to face the issue head on.

And it’s all of the crap that I mentioned + much more that has led us to brexit. Impossibly poor
‘going backwards’ working arrangements and pay in the name of Globalisation, rigged markets, poverty growth, unsustainable wealth gap growth.
No political party could introduce a pensions policy that renders citizens to a life of drudgery working for a pittance making wealthy people even more wealthy. It’s going back to Victorian times. Wealth distribution is so out of balance causing not only issues that I mention but also the rise of Social issues, hence the rise of the populist political parties.

[ninja-lewis]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Evidence says otherwise.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13056

[loafer123]

ninja-lewis said:

Evidence says otherwise.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13056

Very interesting research.

[Toaster]

Countdown said:

How about people saving for their own retirement?

I have I am paying NI, its what the government told me to do and promised a pension at the end of it. I am not an economist neither are people on here. Do not begrudge those that get a state pension even if it is underfunded it is what people were promised and what they have paid, if more NI is required then up the payments.

[Toaster]

crankedup said:

And it’s all of the crap that I mentioned + much more that has led us to brexit. Impossibly poor
‘going backwards’ working arrangements and pay in the name of Globalisation, rigged markets, poverty growth, unsustainable wealth gap growth.
No political party could introduce a pensions policy that renders citizens to a life of drudgery working for a pittance making wealthy people even more wealthy. It’s going back to Victorian times. Wealth distribution is so out of balance causing not only issues that I mention but also the rise of Social issues, hence the rise of the populist political parties.

Spot on and eloquently put.

So you work for many years loyal for Arcadia you have a pension scheme however https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/23/t... Just how do you get companies to honour their pension agreement remember it is part of an employees pay.

Edited by Toaster on Thursday 23 May 19:06

[Welshbeef]

Toaster said:

Spot on and eloquently put.

So you work for many years loyal for Arcadia you have a pension scheme however https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/23/t... Just how do you get companies to honour their pension agreement remember it is part of an employees pay.

Edited by Toaster on Thursday 23 May 19:06

Easy - move your pension fund to a private pension pot instead

[Toaster]

Welshbeef said:

Toaster said:

Spot on and eloquently put.

So you work for many years loyal for Arcadia you have a pension scheme however https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/23/t... Just how do you get companies to honour their pension agreement remember it is part of an employees pay.

Edited by Toaster on Thursday 23 May 19:06

Easy - move your pension fund to a private pension pot instead

Clearly if the boss sold the company for £1 and there is a huge deficit your approach is not one that works, also if the old boss is due to pay in to the pot then you May have to wait until the money is put in so you can take it out. There are many scams out there if it was as easy as you suggest then there would be no mead to move the money around in the first place.

[Welshbeef]

Toaster said:

Clearly if the boss sold the company for £1 and there is a huge deficit your approach is not one that works, also if the old boss is due to pay in to the pot then you May have to wait until the money is put in so you can take it out. There are many scams out there if it was as easy as you suggest then there would be no mead to move the money around in the first place.

On this point IF you have a DB scheme with Arcadia which has a £750m black hole and you apply for a transfer out what happens? Surely they cannot downgrade your exit £ to reflect the defection as it may not be real or may be addressed in the future.

[Frank7]

Dixy said:

I live in a rural area with high demographic of retired. They all get bus passes yet a 17 year old going to sixth form college is required to pay nearly a thousand pounds a year.
Scrap all age related payments, age discrimination is not acceptable in either direction.

I assume, that like me, the retirees in your area paid their whack while they were working, in income tax and N.I. payments.
The bundles that HMRC took from me twice p.a. when I was self employed went to pay for pensions and social security payments to those who’d either earned or needed them, fine by me.
I worked up until I was 72, because I like the finer things in life, and they had to be paid for.
Since retiring, well, from age 65 I guess, I get the State Pension, plus after 60, I was able to apply for a Freedom Pass, for free travel on TFL in London, in addition to these, I get £200 p.a. for assistance with winter fuel payments.
I can live with that, of course trips to Tahiti and Mauritius have virtually dried up, but I think that U.K. didn’t do bad out of me when I was working, it’s not unreasonable to expect a little bit back now.
I neither expect the earth, nor demand it, but free bus rides aren’t going to put U.K. in the poor house.

[Toaster]

Welshbeef said:

Toaster said:

Clearly if the boss sold the company for £1 and there is a huge deficit your approach is not one that works, also if the old boss is due to pay in to the pot then you May have to wait until the money is put in so you can take it out. There are many scams out there if it was as easy as you suggest then there would be no mead to move the money around in the first place.

On this point IF you have a DB scheme with Arcadia which has a £750m black hole and you apply for a transfer out what happens? Surely they cannot downgrade your exit £ to reflect the defection as it may not be real or may be addressed in the future.

Of course they can if the money hasn't been put in how can you take it out, worst case scenario is leave it there DB is a good return for most working people and you get the benefit of PPF https://www.ppf.co.uk I believe you get around 80% of what you would have of the scheme if a company like arcadia put all their committed payments in.

[Toaster]

Frank7 said:

Dixy said:

I live in a rural area with high demographic of retired. They all get bus passes yet a 17 year old going to sixth form college is required to pay nearly a thousand pounds a year.
Scrap all age related payments, age discrimination is not acceptable in either direction.

I assume, that like me, the retirees in your area paid their whack while they were working, in income tax and N.I. payments.
The bundles that HMRC took from me twice p.a. when I was self employed went to pay for pensions and social security payments to those who’d either earned or needed them, fine by me.
I worked up until I was 72, because I like the finer things in life, and they had to be paid for.
Since retiring, well, from age 65 I guess, I get the State Pension, plus after 60, I was able to apply for a Freedom Pass, for free travel on TFL in London, in addition to these, I get £200 p.a. for assistance with winter fuel payments.
I can live with that, of course trips to Tahiti and Mauritius have virtually dried up, but I think that U.K. didn’t do bad out of me when I was working, it’s not unreasonable to expect a little bit back now.
I neither expect the earth, nor demand it, but free bus rides aren’t going to put U.K. in the poor house.

Well said and I think no one can begrudge you of a free bus pass.

[Evanivitch]

Frank7 said:

I neither expect the earth, nor demand it, but free bus rides aren’t going to put U.K. in the poor house.

And yet they aren't provided to youngsters in mandatory education and training placements? It shouldn't be an either or, but it seems crazy this isn't means tested at the very least.

[Countdown]

Toaster said:

Frank7 said:

Dixy said:

I live in a rural area with high demographic of retired. They all get bus passes yet a 17 year old going to sixth form college is required to pay nearly a thousand pounds a year.
Scrap all age related payments, age discrimination is not acceptable in either direction.

I assume, that like me, the retirees in your area paid their whack while they were working, in income tax and N.I. payments.
The bundles that HMRC took from me twice p.a. when I was self employed went to pay for pensions and social security payments to those who’d either earned or needed them, fine by me.
I worked up until I was 72, because I like the finer things in life, and they had to be paid for.
Since retiring, well, from age 65 I guess, I get the State Pension, plus after 60, I was able to apply for a Freedom Pass, for free travel on TFL in London, in addition to these, I get £200 p.a. for assistance with winter fuel payments.
I can live with that, of course trips to Tahiti and Mauritius have virtually dried up, but I think that U.K. didn’t do bad out of me when I was working, it’s not unreasonable to expect a little bit back now.
I neither expect the earth, nor demand it, but free bus rides aren’t going to put U.K. in the poor house.

Well said and I think no one can begrudge you of a free bus pass.

IME most people think that “they’ve paid more than their fair share” and are therefore “entitled” to get something back.

The reality is that most haven’t. And the ones that “have” probably earned so much that they are not particularly concerned about free bus passes and winter fuel allowances whilst they summer in Puerto Banus and winter in Gstaad.

O/T taxi driving is one of the easiest ways of hiding your real earnings from the taxman.

Edited by Countdown on Monday 3rd June 23:22

[BlackLabel]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jun/10/bbc-...