UK Schools: Religious Freedom vs Secular Values Issue

[LoonyTunes]

IanH755 said:

amusingduck said:

When the unstoppable force of LGBT meets the immovable object of Islam, there's only one thing you can do

Yeap, if you decide to choose a side in this situation then do you want to be known as an Islamaphobe or a Homophobe?

I'd imagine that choice would be a hell of a lot harder for those on the far left/progressive side which is possibly why they are extremely quiet on this subject at the moment

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

[Captain Smerc]

Well said Sir !

[amusingduck]

LoonyTunes said:

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

Do religionists not also deserve equality? That's a protected characteristic too. Should they not be free to practice their religious beliefs?

Maybe we should revoke the protection of characteristics that seek to harm other protected characteristics?

[ElectricSoup]

amusingduck said:

LoonyTunes said:

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

Do religionists not also deserve equality? That's a protected characteristic too. Should they not be free to practice their religious beliefs?

Maybe we should revoke the protection of characteristics that seek to harm other protected characteristics?

Religion is not a characteristic, it's a choice.

[gooner1]

LoonyTunes said:

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

Pretty much how I view this.
Though I'm also pretty sure no ones has ever described me as a Liberal Free Thinker.
Just plain old common sense imo.

[Mothersruin]

ElectricSoup said:

amusingduck said:

LoonyTunes said:

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

Do religionists not also deserve equality? That's a protected characteristic too. Should they not be free to practice their religious beliefs?

Maybe we should revoke the protection of characteristics that seek to harm other protected characteristics?

Religion is not a characteristic, it's a choice.

Exactly.

My only issue with the LGBT 'thing' at the moment is some using it as a cover for almost fashion related reasons rather than actual physical and mental related reasons. They muddy the water and create white noise that can sometimes make it more difficult for the real meaningful debate to be held and heard clearly.

[amusingduck]

ElectricSoup said:

Religion is not a characteristic, it's a choice.

Equality Act 2010 said:

4The protected characteristics
The following characteristics are protected characteristics—
age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

[Mothersruin]

amusingduck said:

ElectricSoup said:

Religion is not a characteristic, it's a choice.

Equality Act 2010 said:

4The protected characteristics
The following characteristics are protected characteristics—
age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

It's a choice that has done extremely well at lobbying for protected status.

Look at the Islamophobia arse being bandied about at the moment - nothing more than a legal substitute in countries that don't have Islamic blasphemy laws.

It's bullst. Made up bks.

Same for all of them.

[ElectricSoup]

amusingduck said:

ElectricSoup said:

Religion is not a characteristic, it's a choice.

Equality Act 2010 said:

4The protected characteristics
The following characteristics are protected characteristics—
age;
disability;
gender reassignment;
marriage and civil partnership;
pregnancy and maternity;
race;
religion or belief;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

An excellent example of the law being an ass. Religion is not an *intrinsic* characteristic.

[LoonyTunes]

amusingduck said:

LoonyTunes said:

Not really.

For Liberal Free Thinkers the answer is obvious.

LGBT is a fact of life - these people exist and deserve equality so should be introduced to kids as valid parents as soon as you would introduce hetero parents. You don't need to explain the sexual act to 5 year olds to do this - just that they are parents like any other parents.

Religion is a fact of life but the basis for it is at best unproven and at worst indoctrination in a hateful way of life (see ISIS for details) and should not be taught as a truth - simply that it exists and some adults/people believe in it.

I couldn't care less whether this makes me a religious-a-phobe or whatever. Teaching the real truth is all that matters - not any particular set of parents version of the truth.

Do religionists not also deserve equality? That's a protected characteristic too. Should they not be free to practice their religious beliefs?

They do deserve equality and they get it already. That does not extend to insisting that state schools should follow their particular religious belief system. Their right to indoctrinate tell their children what they believe to be true (regardless of the evidence) ends at the school gates.

[standards]

Countdown said:

They're not going to explode in a ball of fire if they DO learn about LGBT issues. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Well put. I think that some of the parents/protesters might be confusing learning about something and that thing being ‘reccomended’.

[LoonyTunes]

standards said:

Countdown said:

They're not going to explode in a ball of fire if they DO learn about LGBT issues. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Well put. I think that some of the parents/protesters might be confusing learning about something and that thing being ‘reccomended’.

At 4, 5, 6 and 7 they don't even need to know about LGBT "issues", they simply need to know it's a normal fact of life that they are bona-fide parents. Nothing more needs saying. So that when one kid is picked up from school by (say) 2 different mums on 2 different days it's not seen as odd, it's just 2 normal days at school like if it was a Mum and Dad on different days.

[vdn]

You have to wonder; when one part of our society are against teaching their children about different people and that it’s right to treat those different people with respect.

This is not sex education.

But religion though. Those who shout the loudest and all that.

[Countdown]

LoonyTunes said:

At 4, 5, 6 and 7 they don't even need to know about LGBT "issues", they simply need to know it's a normal fact of life that they are bona-fide parents.

Isn't that basically the same thing? As mentioned earlier they are teaching the relationship aspect rather than the sexual aspect of LGBT.

[LoonyTunes]

Countdown said:

LoonyTunes said:

At 4, 5, 6 and 7 they don't even need to know about LGBT "issues", they simply need to know it's a normal fact of life that they are bona-fide parents.

Isn't that basically the same thing? As mentioned earlier they are teaching the relationship aspect rather than the sexual aspect of LGBT.

What I'm saying is that it's not an "issue" as such - it's just a normal part of society. Branding it an "issue" marks it out as something that might have an unpleasant side.

It's kinda like the books they had in junior schools some 25 years ago that caused an uproar like Janet & John, Janet & Janet and John & John. Back then it caused a real furor - today it wouldn't be looked at twice.