UK Schools: Religious Freedom vs Secular Values Issue
Discussion
Rivenink said:
dundarach said:
However for society to rub along happily, you can't expect the religious nut-jobs to be quiet when you dismiss and ridicule them.....
It's the rank hypocrisy tbh. Accusations of indoctrinating kids with "the LGBT ideology" when they literally brainwash their offspring with convictions that their religion is the only one that is right.
If you only introduced religion at 16, do you think your religion would have many adherents?
some people are religious some are not
some are gay some are not
and so on...
Parents should not be allowed to remove children from any subject ever.
I don't agree religious education should be removed as it's part of life and history.
I do agree religion should not be given as an excuse NOT to discuss very real society issues.
However we need to be careful NOT to use reported issues like this to unilaterally upset everyone with faith...
Noodle1982 said:
Countdown said:
Given that, in the bad/good old days most of us PHers had lots of helpings of religion spoon-fed to us (Morning assembly/hymn/prayers, RE lessons, Sunday School, Boys Brigade), how did we all manage to survive the brainwashing?
The religion spoon fed to us wasn't Islam. That's how we survived the brainwashing. Alabama just outlawed abortion, even when its an ectopic pregnancy.
The flavor of religion doesn't really matter much; when fervent nutjobs get their way life is made more s
t for everyone. BlackLabel said:
Rivenink said:
Explaining gay people to a child is not hard: "Susan and John love each other very much and are married, Steve and Bert love each other very much and got married, Mary and Abigal love each other very much and got married."
“But Sir/Mrs last week at our after school religious studies class the Imam/Rabbi/Priest told us that being gay is bad and that god doesn’t like men being with men and women being with women so does this mean that Steve, Bert, Mary and Abigail are going to hell?”dundarach said:
However, anyone who comes onto a public forum such as this one and thinks it's okay to abuse anyone's religious beliefs is far more dangerous in their passive aggressiveness than any RE lessons in a school.
Challenging, mocking, abusing etc people’s belief systems is how the world and society has progressed over millennia. Why do you feel that your religious beliefs deserve more protection than any other belief system?BlackLabel said:
“But Sir/Mrs last week at our after school religious studies class the Imam/Rabbi/Priest told us that being gay is bad and that god doesn’t like men being with men and women being with women so does this mean that Steve, Bert, Mary and Abigail are going to hell?”
No, there's no Hell, nor is there Heaven, nor the tooth fairy.Who needs this mumbo jumbo rubbish ?
BlackLabel said:
“But Sir/Mrs last week at our after school religious studies class the Imam/Rabbi/Priest told us that being gay is bad and that god doesn’t like men being with men and women being with women so does this mean that Steve, Bert, Mary and Abigail are going to hell?”
"Some people believe that, yes. What do you think"?Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Countdown said:
Given that, in the bad/good old days most of us PHers had lots of helpings of religion spoon-fed to us (Morning assembly/hymn/prayers, RE lessons, Sunday School, Boys Brigade), how did we all manage to survive the brainwashing?
The religion spoon fed to us wasn't Islam. That's how we survived the brainwashing. Alabama just outlawed abortion, even when its an ectopic pregnancy.
The flavor of religion doesn't really matter much; when fervent nutjobs get their way life is made more s
t for everyone. Abortion is a whole different debate.
Schools are supposed to teach and prepare the young for life in the world as adults.
In the world there are all sorts of people and all sorts of religions.
In school, kids could perhaps learn to uderstand these different types of people and religions exist and what they are.
They might end up accepting these differences and being more tolerant of them all.
In this country, once an adult, you can elect to be in a religion, or not.
You don’t get to elect what kind of person you were born though.
I do realise some churches/churches pay schools to teach their particular faith, but this is a crazy way to go about things isn’t it?
In the world there are all sorts of people and all sorts of religions.
In school, kids could perhaps learn to uderstand these different types of people and religions exist and what they are.
They might end up accepting these differences and being more tolerant of them all.
In this country, once an adult, you can elect to be in a religion, or not.
You don’t get to elect what kind of person you were born though.
I do realise some churches/churches pay schools to teach their particular faith, but this is a crazy way to go about things isn’t it?
Noodle1982 said:
Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Countdown said:
Given that, in the bad/good old days most of us PHers had lots of helpings of religion spoon-fed to us (Morning assembly/hymn/prayers, RE lessons, Sunday School, Boys Brigade), how did we all manage to survive the brainwashing?
The religion spoon fed to us wasn't Islam. That's how we survived the brainwashing. Alabama just outlawed abortion, even when its an ectopic pregnancy.
The flavor of religion doesn't really matter much; when fervent nutjobs get their way life is made more s
t for everyone. Abortion is a whole different debate.
I don't like separating out religions for criticism, particularly when they worship the same deity.
Edited by Rivenink on Thursday 16th May 12:45
BlackLabel said:
dundarach said:
However, anyone who comes onto a public forum such as this one and thinks it's okay to abuse anyone's religious beliefs is far more dangerous in their passive aggressiveness than any RE lessons in a school.
Challenging, mocking, abusing etc people’s belief systems is how the world and society has progressed over millennia. Why do you feel that your religious beliefs deserve more protection than any other belief system?If we're a more tolerant society than then we tolerate those we disagree with. Otherwise it's the same intolerance, different target, and we've not progressed at all.
Religion should be taught in schools. All religions, the full range. Their beliefs and practices. but education in schools should never ever be based around 1 particular religion.
It makes me sad that our taxes are used to fund the education of our young people with an omnipresent religious doctrine in the background. It is a recipe for community segregation and discourse.
It makes me sad that our taxes are used to fund the education of our young people with an omnipresent religious doctrine in the background. It is a recipe for community segregation and discourse.
Sticks. said:
Whenever I read the sort of comments dundachurch refers to I remember it's just the sort of attitude people would have towards LGBTs and other minorities in the 60s/70s. And excuses then started with 'yes, but they....'
If we're a more tolerant society than then we tolerate those we disagree with. Otherwise it's the same intolerance, different target, and we've not progressed at all.
Not really; for a couple reasons:If we're a more tolerant society than then we tolerate those we disagree with. Otherwise it's the same intolerance, different target, and we've not progressed at all.
1. Being LGBT is not a choice. Religion absolutely is a choice; or "faith" wouldn't be such a key part of getting the promised reward.
2. the paradox of tolerance is that you must not be tolerant of the intolerant. Religions preach intolerance.
Rivenink said:
Not really; for a couple reasons:
1. Being LGBT is not a choice. Religion absolutely is a choice; or "faith" wouldn't be such a key part of getting the promised reward.
2. the paradox of tolerance is that you must not be tolerant of the intolerant. Religions preach intolerance.
I'd argue that for many, religion is not a choice, it is indoctrinated from birth. 1. Being LGBT is not a choice. Religion absolutely is a choice; or "faith" wouldn't be such a key part of getting the promised reward.
2. the paradox of tolerance is that you must not be tolerant of the intolerant. Religions preach intolerance.
It is a choice later in life when you are educated about the options and can challenge BUT you still have to overcome the teachings that were set from very early in life.
Also Hinduism and Jainism might be considered pluralist and tolerant...
Rivenink said:
2. the paradox of tolerance is that you must not be tolerant of the intolerant. Religions preach intolerance.
The paradox of tolerance is being tolerant of the right to be intolerant. Disagree with it, argue against it, but just being abusive (not you) towards it is not a tolerant society. It's ridiculous. I'm sick of certain religions being given a special priority status. The UK is a multicultural place and shouldn't have to capitulate to a small minority.
If they don't like it they should:
Start an Islamic School
Accept they are a minority
Or leave for a more theocratic nation.
If they don't like it they should:
Start an Islamic School
Accept they are a minority
Or leave for a more theocratic nation.
Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Countdown said:
Given that, in the bad/good old days most of us PHers had lots of helpings of religion spoon-fed to us (Morning assembly/hymn/prayers, RE lessons, Sunday School, Boys Brigade), how did we all manage to survive the brainwashing?
The religion spoon fed to us wasn't Islam. That's how we survived the brainwashing. Alabama just outlawed abortion, even when its an ectopic pregnancy.
The flavor of religion doesn't really matter much; when fervent nutjobs get their way life is made more s
t for everyone. Abortion is a whole different debate.
I don't like separating out religions for criticism, particularly when they worship the same deity.
Edited by Rivenink on Thursday 16th May 12:45
Noodle1982 said:
Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Rivenink said:
Noodle1982 said:
Countdown said:
Given that, in the bad/good old days most of us PHers had lots of helpings of religion spoon-fed to us (Morning assembly/hymn/prayers, RE lessons, Sunday School, Boys Brigade), how did we all manage to survive the brainwashing?
The religion spoon fed to us wasn't Islam. That's how we survived the brainwashing. Alabama just outlawed abortion, even when its an ectopic pregnancy.
The flavor of religion doesn't really matter much; when fervent nutjobs get their way life is made more s
t for everyone. Abortion is a whole different debate.
I don't like separating out religions for criticism, particularly when they worship the same deity.
Edited by Rivenink on Thursday 16th May 12:45
ISIS stole some headlines for executing gay men a couple years ago, but there are few headlines about the endemic killing of LGBT people in Jamaica or Brazil.
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