UK Schools: Religious Freedom vs Secular Values Issue

[Foliage]

32,000 schools in the uk, 50 have had letters, drop in the ocean, so who gives a fk.

Is this just news papers trying to create a story from nothing to get views, to get more ad revenue? Probably

[Rivenink]

Vaud said:

Rivenink said:

Not really; for a couple reasons:

1. Being LGBT is not a choice. Religion absolutely is a choice; or "faith" wouldn't be such a key part of getting the promised reward.

2. the paradox of tolerance is that you must not be tolerant of the intolerant. Religions preach intolerance.

I'd argue that for many, religion is not a choice, it is indoctrinated from birth.

It is a choice later in life when you are educated about the options and can challenge BUT you still have to overcome the teachings that were set from very early in life.

Also Hinduism and Jainism might be considered pluralist and tolerant...

It is a choice, the choice is given in some religions as "have faith and you'll go to heaven, or don't and go to hell".

One reason why I hate to make distinctions between religions when making criticisms is that it is easy to get bogged down debating the various values and harms of each religion. My opinions on whether one is better than another is entirely beside the point. They're all based on unsubstantiated beliefs; and their positive, useful values are often ones that can and do exist without the 'mumbo jumbo'.

[Rivenink]

Foliage said:

32,000 schools in the uk, 50 have had letters, drop in the ocean, so who gives a fk.

Is this just news papers trying to create a story from nothing to get views, to get more ad revenue? Probably

That and its a wet dream for some newspapers... the ones that hate the LGBT community and the Muslim community.

[Countdown]

Vaud said:

Also Hinduism and Jainism might be considered pluralist and tolerant...

Just like the other mainstream religions Hinduism has it's own extremist elements.

[Murph7355]

Foliage said:

32,000 schools in the uk, 50 have had letters, drop in the ocean, so who gives a fk.

Is this just news papers trying to create a story from nothing to get views, to get more ad revenue? Probably

No probably about it.

Also, have those 50 schools changed their curriculum as a result?

Robertj21a said:

No, there's no Hell, nor is there Heaven, nor the tooth fairy.
Who needs this mumbo jumbo rubbish ?

Plenty of people get comfort and solace out of it. And now living out in the sticks I can appreciate the sense of community it engenders.

Just because you can't see the point/don't need it/want it, doesn't make it wrong. Or something to be unduly ridiculed (certainly no more so than anything else). We all need to be careful of the "rank hypocrisy" others are noting - it is not restricted to those with religious beliefs.

Being open about religion and teaching about it is important IMO. Both the good and bad it has caused.

[Murph7355]

Piha said:

Religion should be taught in schools. All religions, the full range. Their beliefs and practices. but education in schools should never ever be based around 1 particular religion.

It makes me sad that our taxes are used to fund the education of our young people with an omnipresent religious doctrine in the background. It is a recipe for community segregation and discourse.

Unfortunately for your sadness this country has been shaped to a large extent by religion of one form or another.

It won't go away. The form of that religion will simply change.

[grumbledoak]

I am sadly not amazed but I am slightly amused at those railing against religious "indoctrination" yet seemingly perfectly happy with that being done by the state. As if the state or it's agents have ever set a good moral example.

[Rivenink]

grumbledoak said:

I am sadly not amazed but I am slightly amused at those railing against religious "indoctrination" yet seemingly perfectly happy with that being done by the state. As if the state or it's agents have ever set a good moral example.

Indoctrination is bad.

Education is good.

Undoubtedly everyone will have different views on what is education, and what is indoctrination.

Creationists for example believe the state attempts to indoctrinate kids with the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection.

[gregs656]

Murph7355 said:

State provided education should follow state laws etc (Eg same sex parenting is legal, it should be taught about appropriately).

There is a get out clause they use - "But it also says faith schools may teach "the distinctive faith perspective on relationships" and promote "balanced debate" on "issues that are seen as contentious"."

More here - https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2018/11/nss-war...

I think that the facts of the worlds religions should be taught - partly because it is just quite interesting but also because it's good knowledge to have - but I don't think we should be cowed by religious nonsense on same sex relationships.

[LoonyTunes]

Foliage said:

32,000 schools in the uk, 50 have had letters, drop in the ocean, so who gives a fk.

Is this just news papers trying to create a story from nothing to get views, to get more ad revenue? Probably

Except it's not a newspaper, it's Sky News.

[Roofless Toothless]

WCNFSL117 said:

amusingduck said:

Religion should be stripped of all special treatment in law

Absolutely

And taxed.

[wc98]

dundarach said:

I wholly agree with you....they are....we should have a national curriculum which covers everything in equal unbiased measure including:

some people are religious some are not
some are gay some are not

and so on...

Parents should not be allowed to remove children from any subject ever.

I don't agree religious education should be removed as it's part of life and history.

I do agree religion should not be given as an excuse NOT to discuss very real society issues.


However we need to be careful NOT to use reported issues like this to unilaterally upset everyone with faith...

there is a difference between learning about religion and being taught religion. i should have made that distinction earlier. as for upsetting people,that was not my intention but if someone wants to get upset at a non religious persons description of "gods", there is not much i can do about that.

[wc98]

WCNFSL117 said:

It's ridiculous. I'm sick of certain religions being given a special priority status. The UK is a multicultural place and shouldn't have to capitulate to a small minority.

If they don't like it they should:

Start an Islamic School
Accept they are a minority
Or leave for a more theocratic nation.

nope, i want to see all our kids going to the same schools. segregating kids at an early age fosters divisiveness . the west coast of scotland is a good example of that divisiveness lasting into adulthood between catholics and protestants.

[Piha]

Murph7355 said:

Piha said:

Religion should be taught in schools. All religions, the full range. Their beliefs and practices. but education in schools should never ever be based around 1 particular religion.

It makes me sad that our taxes are used to fund the education of our young people with an omnipresent religious doctrine in the background. It is a recipe for community segregation and discourse.

Unfortunately for your sadness this country has been shaped to a large extent by religion of one form or another.

It won't go away. The form of that religion will simply change.

We used to believe the world was flat too. That doesn't mean we can't change.

[Piha]

wc98 said:

WCNFSL117 said:

It's ridiculous. I'm sick of certain religions being given a special priority status. The UK is a multicultural place and shouldn't have to capitulate to a small minority.

If they don't like it they should:

Start an Islamic School
Accept they are a minority
Or leave for a more theocratic nation.

nope, i want to see all our kids going to the same schools. segregating kids at an early age fosters divisiveness . the west coast of scotland is a good example of that divisiveness lasting into adulthood between catholics and protestants.

This ^^

I think it's incredibly important that kids mix with other kids at school, regardless of their home environment, upbringing, parents economic standing or mystic beliefs.

[markcoznottz]

Nothing on Baroness Warsi's twitter re the schools issue. She's getting a new one torn regarding the islamophobis debate. Might be her last appearance in the public eye. I'm guessing the parents that took thier kids out of school won't be fined... one rule for one

[gooner1]

markcoznottz said:

Nothing on Baroness Warsi's twitter re the schools issue. She's getting a new one torn regarding the islamophobis debate. Might be her last appearance in the public eye. I'm guessing the parents that took thier kids out of school won't be fined... one rule for one

That's an interesting, to me, point.

[ElectricSoup]

LoonyTunes said:

https://news.sky.com/story/the-parents-who-say-the...

It's starting to become a 'thing' now with opposition to lessons that make pupils aware of same sex couples spreading out from Birmingham to the rest of the country. The National Association of Head Teachers says letters have been sent to more than 50 schools across seven parts of the UK from religious parents unhappy about the teaching.

Mainly Muslim schools BUT Christian and Jewish activists are involved as well now.

So who decides what Children learn about the society they are going to grow up in? The (secular) State or the (religious) Parent?

Should kids be taught that parenting comes in many flavours and that none are 'wrong' - just 'different'?

Personally I go with the state on this one but others may differ. It's 2019.

The government insists that when compulsory relationship lessons begin from September 2020 parents will not get a veto. It is a stance that will not go down well with the protesters and I can see it really kicking off then.

Point of order, Mr Speaker, but this is a common misconception. The UK State is not secular. We have an Established Church, the Church of England, which provides unelected representatives to our legislature by right (Bishops in the House of Lords), and a hereditary Head of State position which is contiguous with the Head of the Established Church. This is only the start of what I believe is utterly wrong in the UK Constitution, and is the place where I would begin root and branch reform if I had my way, and work to create a proper, secular democracy.

France is a secular State, the UK is not.

[Countdown]

markcoznottz said:

Nothing on Baroness Warsi's twitter re the schools issue. She's getting a new one torn regarding the islamophobis debate. Might be her last appearance in the public eye. I'm guessing the parents that took thier kids out of school won't be fined... one rule for one

Who is she getting a "new one torn" by?

[Halb]

ElectricSoup said:

Point of order, Mr Speaker, but this is a common misconception. The UK State is not secular. We have an Established Church, the Church of England, which provides unelected representatives to our legislature by right (Bishops in the House of Lords), and a hereditary Head of State position which is contiguous with the Head of the Established Church. This is only the start of what I believe is utterly wrong in the UK Constitution, and is the place where I would begin root and branch reform if I had my way, and work to create a proper, secular democracy.

France is a secular State, the UK is not.

Vive la France! Liberté, égalité, fraternité!