British Steel on the brink of adminstration.
Discussion
TTmonkey said:
Added to the above.... no worker rights, no sick pay, no compensation, no fines for employers, no pensions, no redundancy payments, no unions, and no dividends for share owners.
Makes production costs far lower.
And don't forget all the cheap coal etc etc.Makes production costs far lower.
Yet...........they can build quality. China have built components for their nuclear APR reactors that passed international standards. Meanwhile in France, at a quasi-nationalised forge and Flammanville (spell checks as inflammable, good mismelling) EPR plant, we keep finding the French have deficient QA, even at their level before International standards.
Still trips there keep me in Beaujolais.
Two things I'd be worried about, BS did do quality rail lines, especially now we're on the long continuously welded stuff. I think some EU stuff was used about 20 years ago and suffered curve Stress Corrosion Cracking and due to NRs poor performance monitoring lead to quite a decline in performance of UK trains in the early 2000s (post Hatfield).
Chinese steel may not be the greatest, but as a sign said above our procurement departments desk (singular I know) when we supplied roller bearings to UK infrastructure bridges "DO NOT BUY ITALIAN STEEL".
Worked at the Workington plant on the rails for a bit late 2000s in the Corus days, once these facilities are gone, they are hard to get back. Hopes for the shop floors guys tonight.
TTmonkey said:
markcoznottz said:
bucksmanuk said:
I don’t think us westerners realise what life is like for some in Chinese industry.
2005 I was in a Cheng-Xi shipyard fixing a ship – as you do. The shipyard averaged a death a week. Just 4 days prior to me greeting there, the next dry dock along had a pipe lifting accident which killed 3 and seriously injured 1. 2 days after that, the ship I went to look at, had a fatality due to someone getting asphyxiated while welding up a hold, and another guy with serious respiratory problems after going in to rescue him. This really spooked the Russian crew on the vessel. It didn’t fill me with glee either.
All the shipyard did was carry the dead bodies to the gate on a phut-phut, and ring their families up to come and collect them. No HSE, no investigation, no yellow tape saying be aware etc…
Outside the factory gates the next day, was an even longer queue of people wanting to work…
As mentioned above, I don’t think most people realise just how big and serious the Chinese production machine is now. I think its total world domination, by whatever means are at their disposal. The view from the 747’s window leaving Shanghai airport beggars’ belief. If they want to take out a country’s steel production capacity, they do.
As for earlier comments about BS being a lame duck
In 1984, our production engineering lecturer was on a team looking at why 1 of their steel works was in a mess. One reason was that they had 2 fresh graduates looking after a production line and wrote off £7M (£23M today) worth of production. BS senior management were full of woe as to why they couldn’t get decent engineers to look after the production line. They were asked as to why 2 engineers, with less than 6 months experience between them, were left supervising such an important production line… there was no answer.
There’s reference to what Ford thought about them in this book
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motor-Makers-Martin-Adene...
After being shown round a new production facility and telling the assembled throng, how good BS now were, a Ford purchaser asked loudly “why do you keep making so much s
t then?...
Motor cycle industry in general
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whatever-Happened-British...
Although Bert does congratulate himself a lot in this book. The meeting at BSA after news of a Honda CB750 being made is worthy of a wry smile….
British industries long held woes
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audit-War-Illusion-Realit...
A thoroughly disheartening read
But steel is a strategic product, and we are going to need high grade stuff in big quantities for whatever new energy source is decided upon. I sincerely hope it doesn’t go, but the money required to turn it round is eye-popping.
Traceability you say….
Every single industry I know of is almost chasing its tail keeping on top of its supplier chain. There are stories galore about this… Mind you when someone in purchasing decides to ignore the steel spec on the drawing and order 316 instead of 2507 duplex as “it’s a bit cheaper”, what hope is there?...
Accountants rule nowadays. Do you have any experience of Chinese rebar problems. 2005 I was in a Cheng-Xi shipyard fixing a ship – as you do. The shipyard averaged a death a week. Just 4 days prior to me greeting there, the next dry dock along had a pipe lifting accident which killed 3 and seriously injured 1. 2 days after that, the ship I went to look at, had a fatality due to someone getting asphyxiated while welding up a hold, and another guy with serious respiratory problems after going in to rescue him. This really spooked the Russian crew on the vessel. It didn’t fill me with glee either.
All the shipyard did was carry the dead bodies to the gate on a phut-phut, and ring their families up to come and collect them. No HSE, no investigation, no yellow tape saying be aware etc…
Outside the factory gates the next day, was an even longer queue of people wanting to work…
As mentioned above, I don’t think most people realise just how big and serious the Chinese production machine is now. I think its total world domination, by whatever means are at their disposal. The view from the 747’s window leaving Shanghai airport beggars’ belief. If they want to take out a country’s steel production capacity, they do.
As for earlier comments about BS being a lame duck
In 1984, our production engineering lecturer was on a team looking at why 1 of their steel works was in a mess. One reason was that they had 2 fresh graduates looking after a production line and wrote off £7M (£23M today) worth of production. BS senior management were full of woe as to why they couldn’t get decent engineers to look after the production line. They were asked as to why 2 engineers, with less than 6 months experience between them, were left supervising such an important production line… there was no answer.
There’s reference to what Ford thought about them in this book
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motor-Makers-Martin-Adene...
After being shown round a new production facility and telling the assembled throng, how good BS now were, a Ford purchaser asked loudly “why do you keep making so much s
t then?...Motor cycle industry in general
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whatever-Happened-British...
Although Bert does congratulate himself a lot in this book. The meeting at BSA after news of a Honda CB750 being made is worthy of a wry smile….
British industries long held woes
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audit-War-Illusion-Realit...
A thoroughly disheartening read
But steel is a strategic product, and we are going to need high grade stuff in big quantities for whatever new energy source is decided upon. I sincerely hope it doesn’t go, but the money required to turn it round is eye-popping.
Traceability you say….
Every single industry I know of is almost chasing its tail keeping on top of its supplier chain. There are stories galore about this… Mind you when someone in purchasing decides to ignore the steel spec on the drawing and order 316 instead of 2507 duplex as “it’s a bit cheaper”, what hope is there?...
Makes production costs far lower.
996owner said:
JB! said:
Scunny is the main plant for rail so not sure how this is going to go down.
We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
This country really is failing.... We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
So assuming HS2 happens I wonder where the steel will come from.
What a blinkered attitude the government has
ezi said:
996owner said:
JB! said:
Scunny is the main plant for rail so not sure how this is going to go down.
We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
This country really is failing.... We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
So assuming HS2 happens I wonder where the steel will come from.
What a blinkered attitude the government has
StanleyT said:
ezi said:
996owner said:
JB! said:
Scunny is the main plant for rail so not sure how this is going to go down.
We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
This country really is failing.... We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
So assuming HS2 happens I wonder where the steel will come from.
What a blinkered attitude the government has
What a crap situation for people, the area, and the country.
HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
StanleyT said:
Nope, look at the HS2 procurement page. Lead contractor for the slab track as it will be still to be awarded Q2, 2019, with the upcoming design of the slab track to follow to be novated into the overall contract. Don't think the Tarmacs or Balfours of this world would have preemptively bought thousands of miles of continuously welded track before being awarded a contact.
Sparked my interest with "thousands of miles", so here's a simplistic, possibly horribly wrong, calculation:HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
L555BAT said:
What a crap situation for people, the area, and the country.
HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
Which is why it should be made in the UKStanleyT said:
Nope, look at the HS2 procurement page. Lead contractor for the slab track as it will be still to be awarded Q2, 2019, with the upcoming design of the slab track to follow to be novated into the overall contract. Don't think the Tarmacs or Balfours of this world would have preemptively bought thousands of miles of continuously welded track before being awarded a contact.
Sparked my interest with "thousands of miles", so here's a simplistic, possibly horribly wrong, calculation:HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
“The government has tried to prop up the company in other ways. Network Rail, which owns and manages the UK’s rail infrastructure, placed a £70m order with British Steel in the past few weeks — a year of its normal orders — to support the company as it tried to avoid collapse, according to people familiar with the matter.”
https://www.ft.com/content/05bb8582-7c75-11e9-81d2...
https://www.ft.com/content/05bb8582-7c75-11e9-81d2...
poo at Paul's said:
What's that, about 6 months production?
It's a help and a big contract, but surely only keeping the wolf from the door for a bit?
It's big though, T5 was what, about 40k tonnes, Olympic stadium only has about 12k tonnes in it.
6 months? SIt's a help and a big contract, but surely only keeping the wolf from the door for a bit?
It's big though, T5 was what, about 40k tonnes, Olympic stadium only has about 12k tonnes in it.
horpe has turned out over 100,000 tonnes of steel a week, last time I was there it was still doing 50,000 tonnes a week, not all rail maybe, but those numbers should give you an idea of the scale of production...It is not a process that can be turned on and off, depending on commercial demand, once everything is up to temperature it has to run 24/7, it can only be slowed down so much. There was a fire in the BOS plant a few years ago, and it took eleven days to restore the power, the blast furnaces had to keep churning iron out though, so this was just dumped outside in massive cooling pits, they only get turned off to be relined, and that’s every five to seven years.
gazza285 said:
poo at Paul's said:
What's that, about 6 months production?
It's a help and a big contract, but surely only keeping the wolf from the door for a bit?
It's big though, T5 was what, about 40k tonnes, Olympic stadium only has about 12k tonnes in it.
6 months? SIt's a help and a big contract, but surely only keeping the wolf from the door for a bit?
It's big though, T5 was what, about 40k tonnes, Olympic stadium only has about 12k tonnes in it.
horpe has turned out over 100,000 tonnes of steel a week, last time I was there it was still doing 50,000 tonnes a week, not all rail maybe, but those numbers should give you an idea of the scale of production...It is not a process that can be turned on and off, depending on commercial demand, once everything is up to temperature it has to run 24/7, it can only be slowed down so much. There was a fire in the BOS plant a few years ago, and it took eleven days to restore the power, the blast furnaces had to keep churning iron out though, so this was just dumped outside in massive cooling pits, they only get turned off to be relined, and that’s every five to seven years.
markcoznottz said:
StanleyT said:
ezi said:
996owner said:
JB! said:
Scunny is the main plant for rail so not sure how this is going to go down.
We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
This country really is failing.... We triedusing imported rail in the mid 00's and it was terrible.
So assuming HS2 happens I wonder where the steel will come from.
What a blinkered attitude the government has
TeamD said:
L555BAT said:
What a crap situation for people, the area, and the country.
HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
Which is why it should be made in the UKStanleyT said:
Nope, look at the HS2 procurement page. Lead contractor for the slab track as it will be still to be awarded Q2, 2019, with the upcoming design of the slab track to follow to be novated into the overall contract. Don't think the Tarmacs or Balfours of this world would have preemptively bought thousands of miles of continuously welded track before being awarded a contact.
Sparked my interest with "thousands of miles", so here's a simplistic, possibly horribly wrong, calculation:HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
I'd double that tonnage above, as you need crossovers, switches, sidings and spare for when someone f
ks a job up.We use a mix on the traditional railway of CEN/UIC60, 56kg/m 113lb/yd 110/yd.
I think HS2 will all be CEN60, or possibly a newer profile, depends on what they spec.
Alan Tovey said:
Under normal conditions, Brussels awards a certain amount of permits for free to heavily polluting industries – such as steelmakers – every year.
but then found itself squeezed as the EU halted permit issuance to UK companies until a Brexit deal is finalised.
British Steel was caught out in what one called a “badly timed bet” as permits surged in price once UK allocations were suspended.
Justifying the decision to do a deal on to fund new carbon permits, Business Secretary Greg Clark said that the business “would have attracted an immediate and unremovable fine of £500m, on top of the continuing liability of about £120m, putting the company under significant financial strain”.
And this is one reason why we should tell the EU to fbut then found itself squeezed as the EU halted permit issuance to UK companies until a Brexit deal is finalised.
British Steel was caught out in what one called a “badly timed bet” as permits surged in price once UK allocations were suspended.
Justifying the decision to do a deal on to fund new carbon permits, Business Secretary Greg Clark said that the business “would have attracted an immediate and unremovable fine of £500m, on top of the continuing liability of about £120m, putting the company under significant financial strain”.
k off. They have directly caused this situation, why isn't our business secretary forcing them to issue these stupid carbon credits? The whole idea of carbon credits is a joke, when steel production eventually leaves this country what happens if we ever have to go to war again? Ask the Chinese for steel? Normal people are being affected by climate change rubbish which is pushed by politicians. Fine if the whole world does it but ridiculous if they don't, we are giving our economy away, the Chinese must be laughing their tits off at the stupid westeners.
cb31 said:
Alan Tovey said:
Under normal conditions, Brussels awards a certain amount of permits for free to heavily polluting industries – such as steelmakers – every year.
but then found itself squeezed as the EU halted permit issuance to UK companies until a Brexit deal is finalised.
British Steel was caught out in what one called a “badly timed bet” as permits surged in price once UK allocations were suspended.
Justifying the decision to do a deal on to fund new carbon permits, Business Secretary Greg Clark said that the business “would have attracted an immediate and unremovable fine of £500m, on top of the continuing liability of about £120m, putting the company under significant financial strain”.
And this is one reason why we should tell the EU to fbut then found itself squeezed as the EU halted permit issuance to UK companies until a Brexit deal is finalised.
British Steel was caught out in what one called a “badly timed bet” as permits surged in price once UK allocations were suspended.
Justifying the decision to do a deal on to fund new carbon permits, Business Secretary Greg Clark said that the business “would have attracted an immediate and unremovable fine of £500m, on top of the continuing liability of about £120m, putting the company under significant financial strain”.
k off. They have directly caused this situation, why isn't our business secretary forcing them to issue these stupid carbon credits? The whole idea of carbon credits is a joke, when steel production eventually leaves this country what happens if we ever have to go to war again? Ask the Chinese for steel? Normal people are being affected by climate change rubbish which is pushed by politicians. Fine if the whole world does it but ridiculous if they don't, we are giving our economy away, the Chinese must be laughing their tits off at the stupid westeners.
Having said that Greybull's track record isn't good is it?
Comet > administration a year later
M Local (Morrisons) > administration
Riley (snooker) > yep administration
Monarch airline > yep once again.
British Steel > ......
On the other hand they did turn round Plessey group and some small outfit that makes stuff for JCB diggers.
From the DT "Will it lose money on the acquisition of British Steel?
Greybull bought British Steel from Tata for a token £1 in 2016. In the years since, it has taken £6m in management fees and charged £34m in interest on a £154m loan to British Steel at a hefty 9.6pc. This interest charge has not yet been repaid.
As part of the rescue deal, Greybull promised a £400m investment package for British Steel. Half of that would come from Greybull, with the remainder from a number of banks. How much of this cash has actually been deployed and the proportion that came from Greybull’s own coffers is uncertain."
link
cb31 said:
And this is one reason why we should tell the EU to fk off. They have directly caused this situation, why isn't our business secretary forcing them to issue these stupid carbon credits? The whole idea of carbon credits is a joke, when steel production eventually leaves this country what happens if we ever have to go to war again? Ask the Chinese for steel?
Normal people are being affected by climate change rubbish which is pushed by politicians. Fine if the whole world does it but ridiculous if they don't, we are giving our economy away, the Chinese must be laughing their tits off at the stupid westeners.
War? Really? It’s not 1914 anymore. Any major war would be very different to your thinking. k off. They have directly caused this situation, why isn't our business secretary forcing them to issue these stupid carbon credits? The whole idea of carbon credits is a joke, when steel production eventually leaves this country what happens if we ever have to go to war again? Ask the Chinese for steel? Normal people are being affected by climate change rubbish which is pushed by politicians. Fine if the whole world does it but ridiculous if they don't, we are giving our economy away, the Chinese must be laughing their tits off at the stupid westeners.
I’m still struggling with the way this hardcore right wing think tank area of PH is apoplectic with rage that we’re not nationalising and subsidising this industry.
FiF said:
Thanks for sorting out my crap quote formatting, plus a bit of judicious editing to get to the nuts of that particular issue. Yes, tell them to FRO.
Having said that Greybull's track record isn't good is it?
Comet > administration a year later
M Local (Morrisons) > administration
Riley (snooker) > yep administration
Monarch airline > yep once again.
British Steel > ......
On the other hand they did turn round Plessey group and some small outfit that makes stuff for JCB diggers.
From the DT "Will it lose money on the acquisition of British Steel?
Greybull bought British Steel from Tata for a token £1 in 2016. In the years since, it has taken £6m in management fees and charged £34m in interest on a £154m loan to British Steel at a hefty 9.6pc. This interest charge has not yet been repaid.
As part of the rescue deal, Greybull promised a £400m investment package for British Steel. Half of that would come from Greybull, with the remainder from a number of banks. How much of this cash has actually been deployed and the proportion that came from Greybull’s own coffers is uncertain."
link
Assets are also tied against the loan. I wouldnt be surprised if produced product is tied like our place. 100kt of rolled product in our place is owned by the bank. Having said that Greybull's track record isn't good is it?
Comet > administration a year later
M Local (Morrisons) > administration
Riley (snooker) > yep administration
Monarch airline > yep once again.
British Steel > ......
On the other hand they did turn round Plessey group and some small outfit that makes stuff for JCB diggers.
From the DT "Will it lose money on the acquisition of British Steel?
Greybull bought British Steel from Tata for a token £1 in 2016. In the years since, it has taken £6m in management fees and charged £34m in interest on a £154m loan to British Steel at a hefty 9.6pc. This interest charge has not yet been repaid.
As part of the rescue deal, Greybull promised a £400m investment package for British Steel. Half of that would come from Greybull, with the remainder from a number of banks. How much of this cash has actually been deployed and the proportion that came from Greybull’s own coffers is uncertain."
link
I wonder how long they could have kept going on 30m. Sounds a lot but its only a few months taxes for the estimated 25k people.
Do you think france would not done it due to eu rules.
JB! said:
TeamD said:
L555BAT said:
What a crap situation for people, the area, and the country.
HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
Which is why it should be made in the UKStanleyT said:
Nope, look at the HS2 procurement page. Lead contractor for the slab track as it will be still to be awarded Q2, 2019, with the upcoming design of the slab track to follow to be novated into the overall contract. Don't think the Tarmacs or Balfours of this world would have preemptively bought thousands of miles of continuously welded track before being awarded a contact.
Sparked my interest with "thousands of miles", so here's a simplistic, possibly horribly wrong, calculation:HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
I'd double that tonnage above, as you need crossovers, switches, sidings and spare for when someone f
ks a job up.We use a mix on the traditional railway of CEN/UIC60, 56kg/m 113lb/yd 110/yd.
I think HS2 will all be CEN60, or possibly a newer profile, depends on what they spec.
horpe currently covers >95% of all NR metal requirements, however this is only around 55% of Scunnys current output. There is also the plate mill that Government bare paying to keep mothballed as its the only place in the UK that makes material for their tanks. The bigger concern is the supporting industries. Look on google maps at S
horpe, its a whole independent eco system, from truck stops to Tarmac, to Volvo and MAN. Labour agencies and a retail park all feed into powering the plant. The company I currently work for deal with the waste from the steel making process and a lot of this goes into the manufacturing of asphalt, so not only does it bring Rail projects to a halt within a day or two it will bring Highway projects to a halt. There are a number of other industries that also rely on byproducts of this process. They are also a huge consumer of scrap metal generated by other industries.
As I said in my previous post underneath it all there is a profitable business although demand is down (but this is the case across the whole of Europe). Greybull have taken a gamble on making some money from Carbon Credits and have had their fingers burnt by our delayed exit from the EU. My company has limited exposure to them (following the collapse of SSI) and much of the industry takes the same approach.
Fingers crossed for a new buyer!
KarlMac said:
JB! said:
TeamD said:
L555BAT said:
What a crap situation for people, the area, and the country.
HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
Which is why it should be made in the UKStanleyT said:
Nope, look at the HS2 procurement page. Lead contractor for the slab track as it will be still to be awarded Q2, 2019, with the upcoming design of the slab track to follow to be novated into the overall contract. Don't think the Tarmacs or Balfours of this world would have preemptively bought thousands of miles of continuously welded track before being awarded a contact.
Sparked my interest with "thousands of miles", so here's a simplistic, possibly horribly wrong, calculation:HS2 is 330 miles or 531km.
Two rails each way is 2124km of rail.
Google says we use UIC60 rail which is 60kg/m, or 60t/km.
So 2124 * 60 = 127,440 tonnes of rail.
I'd double that tonnage above, as you need crossovers, switches, sidings and spare for when someone f
ks a job up.We use a mix on the traditional railway of CEN/UIC60, 56kg/m 113lb/yd 110/yd.
I think HS2 will all be CEN60, or possibly a newer profile, depends on what they spec.
horpe currently covers >95% of all NR metal requirements, however this is only around 55% of Scunnys current output. There is also the plate mill that Government bare paying to keep mothballed as its the only place in the UK that makes material for their tanks. The bigger concern is the supporting industries. Look on google maps at S
horpe, its a whole independent eco system, from truck stops to Tarmac, to Volvo and MAN. Labour agencies and a retail park all feed into powering the plant. The company I currently work for deal with the waste from the steel making process and a lot of this goes into the manufacturing of asphalt, so not only does it bring Rail projects to a halt within a day or two it will bring Highway projects to a halt. There are a number of other industries that also rely on byproducts of this process. They are also a huge consumer of scrap metal generated by other industries.
As I said in my previous post underneath it all there is a profitable business although demand is down (but this is the case across the whole of Europe). Greybull have taken a gamble on making some money from Carbon Credits and have had their fingers burnt by our delayed exit from the EU. My company has limited exposure to them (following the collapse of SSI) and much of the industry takes the same approach.
Fingers crossed for a new buyer!
Also fingers crossed for Scunny in general.
bazza white said:
Do you think france would not done it due to eu rules.
Well look what they did when Danone was under threat of takeover. Drafted legislation to protect vital industries on grounds of national security, Danone listed amongst them.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analys...
Of course takeovers are different to financial collapse but even so. Yoghurt maker a strategic asset, mmmmm Danone.
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