45th President of the United States, Donald Trump (Vol. 7)
Discussion
andy_s said:
Eric Mc said:
andy_s said:
Eric, you can be perfectly caring, concerned and good hearted without thinking men are women if they say so and that's all there is to it, that slave reparations need to be made, that if you're white you are racist even if you think you aren't or that our culture is inherently sick and needs dismantling. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be treated sympathetically or that we should get carried away thinking our society is faultless or that racism doesn't exist at all.
If you read back a page you'll see a long passage demonstrating that I do care, but about real people, not imaginary issues foist upon us by those using compassion as a cloak for power.
If you can't saying something good - say nothing.If you read back a page you'll see a long passage demonstrating that I do care, but about real people, not imaginary issues foist upon us by those using compassion as a cloak for power.
People are getting far too nasty and harsh on each other.
Eric Mc said:
Tell you what - you do that.
When demanding others be nice, start with oneself.
When demanding others be nice, start with oneself.
I've no idea why you have your tits in a mangle about this. Have a care and go back to see where I have been anything less than courteous, even after you and others implied I was 'demonise[ing] care, concern and general good heartedness', which I categorically wasn't, nor was I 'demanding others be nice'; that was your good self.
Trump trashes Nigeria and bans its immigrants. Nigerians love him for it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-trash...
Interesting take on the immigrant ban from a Nigerian.
She points out that in some places the word s
thole is not entirely incorrect and the the reasoning behind the ban is forcing their government to get themselves together on security issues that should have been dealt with years ago.
Interesting take on the immigrant ban from a Nigerian.
She points out that in some places the word s
thole is not entirely incorrect and the the reasoning behind the ban is forcing their government to get themselves together on security issues that should have been dealt with years ago._dobbo_ said:
I tend to agree. We always wanted a real Trump supporter to join the thread and explain their thinking.
What we've ended up with is two entrenched sides shouting at each other. I am as guilty as anyone else of joining in this shouting.
For all of Jimbeaux's claims of TDS, for me the way he engages in the "debate" places him in the same position at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Which I guess makes us all deranged, and makes for a bad thread.
Edit: by "us" I mean those taking part in the back and forth bickering - before someone jumps on me for tarring everybody with the same brush.
Dobbo, I attempted to politely cite my positions. However, in about a week and a half I have collected the following adjectives; stupid; interloper; idiot; deluded; liar; racist; dense; Jim Crow; and I’m sure a few that I’ve overlooked. I probably have been guilty of loosening my decorum but that sort of reception not only makes that difficult to maintain, it also may somewhat call for it. What we've ended up with is two entrenched sides shouting at each other. I am as guilty as anyone else of joining in this shouting.
For all of Jimbeaux's claims of TDS, for me the way he engages in the "debate" places him in the same position at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Which I guess makes us all deranged, and makes for a bad thread.
Edit: by "us" I mean those taking part in the back and forth bickering - before someone jumps on me for tarring everybody with the same brush.
ETA: Granted that is coming from only about three posters. However, for the most part, three posters are who is mainly toiling on this thread. The rest of you who pass through here routinely please accept my apologies, I was not applying this to you.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 17th February 12:28
Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 17th February 12:51
Jimbeaux said:
_dobbo_ said:
I tend to agree. We always wanted a real Trump supporter to join the thread and explain their thinking.
What we've ended up with is two entrenched sides shouting at each other. I am as guilty as anyone else of joining in this shouting.
For all of Jimbeaux's claims of TDS, for me the way he engages in the "debate" places him in the same position at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Which I guess makes us all deranged, and makes for a bad thread.
Edit: by "us" I mean those taking part in the back and forth bickering - before someone jumps on me for tarring everybody with the same brush.
Dobbo, I attempted to politely cite my positions. However, in about a week and a half I have collected the following adjectives; stupid, interloper, deluded, ; liar; racist; dense; stupid; Jim Crow; and I’m sure a few that I’ve overlooked. I probably have been guilty of loosening my decorum but that sort of reception not only makes that difficult to maintain, it also may somewhat call for it. What we've ended up with is two entrenched sides shouting at each other. I am as guilty as anyone else of joining in this shouting.
For all of Jimbeaux's claims of TDS, for me the way he engages in the "debate" places him in the same position at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Which I guess makes us all deranged, and makes for a bad thread.
Edit: by "us" I mean those taking part in the back and forth bickering - before someone jumps on me for tarring everybody with the same brush.
ETA: Granred that is coming from only about three posters. However, for the most part, three posters are is what is mainly toiling on this thread. The rest of you who pass through here routinely please accept my apologies, I was not applying this to you.
...To dobbo's point, this not only makes for a "bad thread", but a "bad society" too. At least if you want harmony - if you think the world needs a good shake up, then it's probably just the ticket.
Exactly the same happens on the Brexit related threads, most LGBQT topics and anything to do with religion, immigration etc. (And Climate Change - how the hell did I forget that!)
I get a feeling that in trying to cater for the centre ground above most else for the last couple of decades, our ruling classes have ended up pleasing nobody really. And as we all have nothing better to do, and (generally) have it so good that s
tty little differences get magnified, we're starting to move out towards the poles (not me - I've always been further right than Genghis Khan 
Cue someone noting he was actually left wing...). Possibly catalysed by some of the stty little differences not actually being that little any more.US seeks to pivot to Turkey-first policy on Syria: https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US-seeks-to-pivo...
Some background:
After shelling killed 8 turkish troops Turkey responded by giving military aid to Ukraine (notably to the amount of $30 million which was recently denied by the US) as a poke in the eye to Putin. Turkish and Russian forces are currently standing behind their opposing proxies in Idlib province where brown stuff is hitting the fan in quantity.
<><><>
We'll see how far this current overture goes as I can't see Turkey giving up their S-300's any time soon but overall a good move IMO.
I think there needs to be a recognition of the fact that if we want less American and European troops in the middle east then there's going to be more Turkish troops instead. No one else in the area comes close to Turkey for industrial innovation and capacity so a strategic relationship makes a lot of sense to me.
Some background:
After shelling killed 8 turkish troops Turkey responded by giving military aid to Ukraine (notably to the amount of $30 million which was recently denied by the US) as a poke in the eye to Putin. Turkish and Russian forces are currently standing behind their opposing proxies in Idlib province where brown stuff is hitting the fan in quantity.
<><><>
We'll see how far this current overture goes as I can't see Turkey giving up their S-300's any time soon but overall a good move IMO.
I think there needs to be a recognition of the fact that if we want less American and European troops in the middle east then there's going to be more Turkish troops instead. No one else in the area comes close to Turkey for industrial innovation and capacity so a strategic relationship makes a lot of sense to me.
Countdown said:
AW111 said:
Byker28i said:
Matthew 19:14
The Trump Administration is requiring notes taken during confidential therapy sessions with migrant children be handed over to ICE, and the details provided by the children during therapy are being used to deport them
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/natio...
If that's true, will the AMA or whatever professional body take an interest?The Trump Administration is requiring notes taken during confidential therapy sessions with migrant children be handed over to ICE, and the details provided by the children during therapy are being used to deport them
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/natio...
Come here and we'll take your kids away from you, not tell you where they are and then deport you back without your kids and limited ways for you to find them, because we never kept track of them either. Quite a powerful message to send and as countdown said, attractive to trumps base who believe trump when he places all blame on illegal immigrants
It's claimed it's working but I think the last figures produced
Tartan Pixie said:
US seeks to pivot to Turkey-first policy on Syria: https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US-seeks-to-pivo...
Some background:
After shelling killed 8 turkish troops Turkey responded by giving military aid to Ukraine (notably to the amount of $30 million which was recently denied by the US) as a poke in the eye to Putin. Turkish and Russian forces are currently standing behind their opposing proxies in Idlib province where brown stuff is hitting the fan in quantity.
<><><>
We'll see how far this current overture goes as I can't see Turkey giving up their S-300's any time soon but overall a good move IMO.
I think there needs to be a recognition of the fact that if we want less American and European troops in the middle east then there's going to be more Turkish troops instead. No one else in the area comes close to Turkey for industrial innovation and capacity so a strategic relationship makes a lot of sense to me.
And of course the same thing in Libya with Turkey shipping in 'troops' and drones [& 'fighters' that have dubious backgrounds from Syria] to support the UN-backed Govt., against Haftar [who's winning atm] and his Russian controlled Wagner proxy.Some background:
After shelling killed 8 turkish troops Turkey responded by giving military aid to Ukraine (notably to the amount of $30 million which was recently denied by the US) as a poke in the eye to Putin. Turkish and Russian forces are currently standing behind their opposing proxies in Idlib province where brown stuff is hitting the fan in quantity.
<><><>
We'll see how far this current overture goes as I can't see Turkey giving up their S-300's any time soon but overall a good move IMO.
I think there needs to be a recognition of the fact that if we want less American and European troops in the middle east then there's going to be more Turkish troops instead. No one else in the area comes close to Turkey for industrial innovation and capacity so a strategic relationship makes a lot of sense to me.
US is pulling 101st Airborne out of west Africa to be replaced by a newly formed training regiment, to lower tempo, 'bring troops home' and upgrade combat readiness from the domestic base.
Haftar has strangled the oil exports as if there weren't enough problems there.
EU just stares and blinks; perhaps a wise course...
Murph7355 said:
This is the way of the world currently it seems.
To dobbo's point, this not only makes for a "bad thread", but a "bad society" too. At least if you want harmony - if you think the world needs a good shake up, then it's probably just the ticket.
Exactly the same happens on the Brexit related threads, most LGBQT topics and anything to do with religion, immigration etc. (And Climate Change - how the hell did I forget that!)
I get a feeling that in trying to cater for the centre ground above most else for the last couple of decades, our ruling classes have ended up pleasing nobody really. And as we all have nothing better to do, and (generally) have it so good that stty little differences get magnified, we're starting to move out towards the poles (not me - I've always been further right than Genghis Khan Cue someone noting he was actually left wing...). Possibly catalysed by some of the stty little differences not actually being that little any more.
Joe Rogan: Jonathan Haidt on the modern Call-Out Culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5dIS8NmK1UTo dobbo's point, this not only makes for a "bad thread", but a "bad society" too. At least if you want harmony - if you think the world needs a good shake up, then it's probably just the ticket.
Exactly the same happens on the Brexit related threads, most LGBQT topics and anything to do with religion, immigration etc. (And Climate Change - how the hell did I forget that!)
I get a feeling that in trying to cater for the centre ground above most else for the last couple of decades, our ruling classes have ended up pleasing nobody really. And as we all have nothing better to do, and (generally) have it so good that s
tty little differences get magnified, we're starting to move out towards the poles (not me - I've always been further right than Genghis Khan Cue someone noting he was actually left wing...). Possibly catalysed by some of the stty little differences not actually being that little any more.12min clip that goes in to exactly what you're talking about. Highly recommended viewing for anyone, left or right.
He talks about how the internet encourages us to 'call out' anything we don't believe in and how this is driving polarization.
Calling out someone as a racist, TDS sufferer, SJW, islamaphobe or whatever "then that imposes an external cost on others and that's what makes you so insufferable."
Goes on to talk about how we evolved in an us vs them environment so when external threats are removed we start to look for another them to be against.
andy_s said:
Ski lifts, bars, NYC, Cal, restaurants and even theme park queues? Anyone from the rust belt? The ma & pa dinner in Hicksville? The Nebraskan dirt farmer? The trucker? The unemployed Chicago family man on welfare? The part-time waitress single mom figuring out how to deal with her diabetes and feed the kids? The guy trying to start a business paying tax after tax on top of tax tied up in regulations? Did you visit a town where the main employer has left - the ghost towns filled with nothing but people a welfare cheque away from eviction? The 'ignorant rednecks' you've just denigrated?
I don't like Trump, and I'm sincere in that, but I can see how views can be very skewed by levels of interaction like this. Lots of them are simple folk of course, most watch one news outlet and get pumped full of propaganda, ill-educated, poor and simplistic in their opinions. But they have a vote, and a life, and see someone sticking up for them [even if he isn't] and hear 'MAGA' and 'USA' from him. Hope. From the opposition they hear 'slavery reparations!', 'transexual rights!', 'open borders!', 'white male privilege!' and hear day after day the knocking of their hero. Mmmm.
Californians aren't aholes, but they aren't in the same country, not even the same continent, as this big raft of other folk, and they [the 'enlightened'], to add insult to injury, then just dismiss and call them 'deplorable' for voting for Trump, embarrassed at his position, embarrassed at their own people for putting him there, still trying to figure out why he is.
I don't like Trump, but I see why these people do, and I see why he may yet get a second term. Short-vision and a lack of education amongst the educated who live in as much as a bubble as those peasants...
Purely anecdotal (so skewed towards people who are middle age or older as that's mostly the age range I socialize with) but my experience is slightly different.I don't like Trump, and I'm sincere in that, but I can see how views can be very skewed by levels of interaction like this. Lots of them are simple folk of course, most watch one news outlet and get pumped full of propaganda, ill-educated, poor and simplistic in their opinions. But they have a vote, and a life, and see someone sticking up for them [even if he isn't] and hear 'MAGA' and 'USA' from him. Hope. From the opposition they hear 'slavery reparations!', 'transexual rights!', 'open borders!', 'white male privilege!' and hear day after day the knocking of their hero. Mmmm.
Californians aren't a
holes, but they aren't in the same country, not even the same continent, as this big raft of other folk, and they [the 'enlightened'], to add insult to injury, then just dismiss and call them 'deplorable' for voting for Trump, embarrassed at his position, embarrassed at their own people for putting him there, still trying to figure out why he is.I don't like Trump, but I see why these people do, and I see why he may yet get a second term. Short-vision and a lack of education amongst the educated who live in as much as a bubble as those peasants...
Folk who are full on MAGA tend to have a bit of money, at least enough for a harley or whatever trappings of 'freedom f
k yeah' they feel they need.Rural folk closer to the breadline tend to be more nuanced as they may not be protected from medicare cuts, may have more respect for the environment if they're working on the land, or otherwise have life pressures that make their thinking more sophisticated than someone who can afford to live in a political bubble.
A generalization for sure and anecdotal, however I think that when any political movement starts speaking on behalf of the working class it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes Trump's messaging appeals but there's a lot of nose holding going on too.
Tartan Pixie said:
Purely anecdotal (so skewed towards people who are middle age or older as that's mostly the age range I socialize with) but my experience is slightly different.
Folk who are full on MAGA tend to have a bit of money, at least enough for a harley or whatever trappings of 'freedom fk yeah' they feel they need.
Rural folk closer to the breadline tend to be more nuanced as they may not be protected from medicare cuts, may have more respect for the environment if they're working on the land, or otherwise have life pressures that make their thinking more sophisticated than someone who can afford to live in a political bubble.
A generalization for sure and anecdotal, however I think that when any political movement starts speaking on behalf of the working class it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes Trump's messaging appeals but there's a lot of nose holding going on too.
For sure, it was broadly anecdotal from myself as well based on time there pre-Trump, it was more to counter the 'I've spoken to people on a ski-lift and they say...' Folk who are full on MAGA tend to have a bit of money, at least enough for a harley or whatever trappings of 'freedom f
k yeah' they feel they need.Rural folk closer to the breadline tend to be more nuanced as they may not be protected from medicare cuts, may have more respect for the environment if they're working on the land, or otherwise have life pressures that make their thinking more sophisticated than someone who can afford to live in a political bubble.
A generalization for sure and anecdotal, however I think that when any political movement starts speaking on behalf of the working class it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes Trump's messaging appeals but there's a lot of nose holding going on too.
I watched a few of the Trump rally supporters travelogues and a few documentaries focused on pro-Trumpists, [and to make it plain to people sharpening knives it is purely to understand, not to endorse], and they seemed to fit a few of the characteristics I mentioned above. I also see the middle layer that hold their noses and vote as it's economically expedient despite being sometimes aghast at the wilder things; acknowledging he's a pussy-grabbing liar but figuring the only way it affects them is in the wallet [I could riff into some Captain Beefheart there but...] - pragmatists or 'collaborators', take your pick.
It's a funny dynamic in the US I guess, as the likes of Bernie and Yang should have appealed to the poorest and most disadvantaged but perhaps the priorities are more 'he's a commie' or 'he's a nerd' that trumps it - or not of course, as the fat lady is just clearing her throat at the moment.
Couldn't see if this has been posted, but I might have missed it amongst the recent spate of squabbling, but it looks like Trump learned his lesson from his impeachment trial, as many Republican senators hoped he would.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
uknick said:
Couldn't see if this has been posted, but I might have missed it amongst the recent spate of squabbling, but it looks like Trump learned his lesson from his impeachment trial, as many Republican senators hoped he would.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
Here's hoping that our Trump-supporting friends actually address this behaviour.https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
uknick said:
Couldn't see if this has been posted, but I might have missed it amongst the recent spate of squabbling, but it looks like Trump learned his lesson from his impeachment trial, as many Republican senators hoped he would.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
And many will take that link as gospel with no regard to the fact that it may be precisely what he says it is; a state that refuses to allow checks on people entering the nation.https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/13/trump-new...
Clearly he's learnt he's untouchable.
Let's say London decided to withhold all flight manifests from the the U.K. security apparatus, thus allowing whomever landed entry; no checking the watch lists or Interpol bulletins that might allow one to stop them from boarding at their destination. Then you rely on an overworked customs agent to know all of what I just stated.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 17th February 15:18
pinchmeimdreamin said:
Jimbeaux said:
And many will take that link as gospel with no regard to the fact that it may be precisely what he says it is; a state that refuses to allow checks on people entering the nation.]
Do you have any links to this I’ve just had a quick Google and I can’t see anything?Just as the modest Trump tweets himself a Happy Presidents Day message, topless feminists and a Hindu anti-meat eater invade Bernies speech and push him off the podium to rant. The US in microcosm.
[This doesn't mean I hate Hindus, meat-eaters, topless feminists, twitter, podiums or the US]
[This doesn't mean I hate Hindus, meat-eaters, topless feminists, twitter, podiums or the US]
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