How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[chrispmartha]

Greg66 said:

C4ME said:

Greg66 said:

FiF said:

Well let's have a look at the demographic of who voted for the Brexit party in EP2019 election.
Source, Clarke, Stewart &Whiteley



Strikes me that the post refocusing on 'working class people' for whatever intent was indeed patronising guff, although it does depend on definition of working class.

Can you explain those numbers a bit? It appears that by (eg) social group the percentages total well over 100. For other groupings they don’t. How is it they total over 100 for certain groupings?

Because each line shows the percentage of that group that voted for the Brexit party. What the graph does not give is any indication of the relative size of each group or how the vote split across the groups.

So although 50% of the over 65s voted for the Brexit Party there might not be as many of them as in the other age groups so you cannot tell how relevant they are.

Edited by C4ME on Wednesday 3rd July 14:24

Ah. I see - it's not a breakdown of the makeup of those who voted for TBP. Not sure how useful it is in that case, because it doesn't tell you how much of TBP's support as a whole comes from working class voters (which was the point).

My point was more about what is being classed as ‘working class’ and what makes the ‘working class’ vote more valid?

That was the patronising bit

[bitchstewie]

amusingduck said:

This is really cuddly and fluffy compared to your savage critique of Boris, and he isn't even a convicted criminal as far as I know!

It rather spoils the mostly blemish-free moral highground you held, that some things simply preclude the possibility of your support

I don't know enough about her.

From what I do know I've said it look like awful judgement.

She isn't running to be Prime Minister of the UK and she doesn't directly represent us on the world stage so it's hard to be as bothered.

[FiF]

C4ME said:

Is that percentage is of those who voted, those who are registered to vote or those alive?

Those who declared they voted TBP when questioned, ie nearest to the first of your options but which technically is none of the above due to recognising the known issues around self declared voting history polls / surveys / interviews, ie they forget or just plain fib.

[anonymous-user]

So we can agree that the table is off-point and may not be based on reliable data.

Next?

[Earthdweller]

toppstuff said:

Stuff

Just wondering when your next flight is ?

Not to anywhere without the internet I hope !

[Robertj21a]

toppstuff said:

Phud said:

toppstuff said:

I will ask the same question of you cranked.

Give me one example of something you cannot do right now that you want to, because of the EU.

Land sea bass if I am fishing off UK waters

Really?! Is the best example you can think of resulting from breaking free of the " EU dictatorship" !!

I'm sure your own post requested .....an example, just one example.........

Now that you're received quite a few, you're trying to rebuff them all with more of your usual silliness and changing the story as it suits you.

You never seem to realise that most of us sussed you out rather a long time ago and all you've done recently is to dig that hole even deeper. I'd offer you a larger shovel but you seem to be doing rather well all by yourself.

[BigMon]

Robertj21a said:

toppstuff said:

Phud said:

toppstuff said:

I will ask the same question of you cranked.

Give me one example of something you cannot do right now that you want to, because of the EU.

Land sea bass if I am fishing off UK waters

Really?! Is the best example you can think of resulting from breaking free of the " EU dictatorship" !!

I'm sure your own post requested .....an example, just one example.........

Now that you're received quite a few, you're trying to rebuff them all with more of your usual silliness and changing the story as it suits you.

You never seem to realise that most of us sussed you out rather a long time ago and all you've done recently is to dig that hole even deeper. I'd offer you a larger shovel but you seem to be doing rather well all by yourself.

I don't think he's any different to you to be honest, Robert. You're both just different sides of the same coin.

If both of you had all your posts stripped out of this thread I don't think it would be any loss given it seems to be about 90% insults.

[Garvin]

andymadmak said:

Garvin said:

I am now ensconced in the lounge at LHR T5 awaiting my delayed flight to Munich - a delay that must surely be the fault of the EU, or Brexit, or both! However, I now have time to compose an elitist, supercilious post about the ills of allowing the thick proletariat to vote on anything meaningful as well as pour bile on anyone with a different view to mine by drumming up a racist*/thick*/great unwashed* slur on those who dare to counter my erudite views and eloquently constructed posts.

In the meantime, has anyone any idea how Boris, for surely it will be he who will be elected tribe chief and PM by the blue rinse brigade, is actually going to achieve Brexit? I, for one, just can’t fathom the plan . . . . . . . or is that because there isn’t one!

*Delete as applicable

I said at the very beginning of the Tory Leadership race that it would come down to Hunt Vs Johnson. Hunt may yet just sneak the victory imho, so your question should apply to both.
My answer then is this:

Hunt will not deliver Brexit because he is a Remainer. His tough talk will be nothing more than that and he will dissolve into May style compromises that will serve no purpose other than to ensure a Corbyn victory in the next GE.

Johnson may or may not have a plan. If I were Johnson I would now push for a WTO Brexit on 31st October. I say that because any other Brexit can only come about if the EU is also willing to reopen negotiations. If (and it's a big if) there is going to be ANY sensible movement from the EU in that direction it will only come if they believe that the UK PM is prepared to walk away at the end of October, no matter what. Any sign of weakness from Boris will be the justification for the EU to remain as resolute and unbending in their approach to the negotiations as they have been for the past 3 years.
Do I like that we are a few months away from what I think was an entirely avoidable crunch? No. But to break the impasse requires strength and courage, and a clear willingness to follow through on commitments. It takes two sides to negotiate, and from where I am sitting it's the EU that sees no compelling reason for it to have to get around the table and talk sensibly. Give them that reason and we might get some progress.

I’m not concerned with Hunt atm as I consider his chances of success to be rather on the small side - but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Regarding BoJo, I see you, like me, cannot fathom what plan, if any, he has regarding Brexit. However, supposing your way forward of pushing for a WTO Brexit is correct, how is he going to change the Parliamentary ‘arithmetic’ to achieve it or even keep it alive as a negotiating position? Without any change the EU must surely consider the WTO Brexit an idle threat as they will believe Parliament will do their work for them and block it.

A WTO Brexit can only be achieved if the EU gamble on refusing another extension (hoping to force May’s deal) and the current one times out with a stalemate Parliament. But what chances of that? Unless BoJo goes on a charm offensive, with offensive being the operative word, around Europe and really pisses off the likes of Macron. It’s a plan, not a very good one, but a plan nevertheless!

[amusingduck]

Garvin said:

I’m not concerned with Hunt atm as I consider his chances of success to be rather on the small side - but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Regarding BoJo, I see you, like me, cannot fathom what plan, if any, he has regarding Brexit. However, supposing your way forward of pushing for a WTO Brexit is correct, how is he going to change the Parliamentary ‘arithmetic’ to achieve it or even keep it alive as a negotiating position? Without any change the EU must surely consider the WTO Brexit an idle threat as they will believe Parliament will do their work for them and block it.

A WTO Brexit can only be achieved if the EU gamble on refusing another extension (hoping to force May’s deal) and the current one times out with a stalemate Parliament. But what chances of that? Unless BoJo goes on a charm offensive, with offensive being the operative word, around Europe and really pisses off the likes of Macron. It’s a plan, not a very good one, but a plan nevertheless!

Parliament didn't force May to delay, they forced her to seek a delay. May was a willing participant.

How do they force Boris not to run down the clock to a No Deal Brexit if he is not willing to go along? I don't think they can.

[DeepEnd]

I see fishing has cropped up.

Anyone notice that Hunt has promised a £6Bn bailout for fishing and farmers if we have a no deal.

I thought brexit was supposed to be good for fishing - as Nigel kept telling us - and now it needs a bailout?

Also Hunt has just said he’ll “with heavy heart” let the Steel Wheel factory go bust, but he will help fishermen. How does that work? And isn’t this just protectionist behaviour we are supposed to be leaving behind?

Also seems 170 people making the old burgundy passports in Gateshead have now been laid off as the new blue passports made by that Franco-German company get ready to take over - I wonder if they’ll be subject to tariffs too?

[loafer123]

Adenauer said:

loafer123 said:

I have shocking news.

I know it is hard to believe, but the EU has chosen a German as President of the Commission, a French woman as head of the ECB and a Belgian as President of the Parliament.

You really couldn’t make it up.

Who else should they have chosen, a Brit?

Sorry to reply so slowly...busy day.

My point is exactly that.

Even if we stayed inside the EU there is no chance that a Brit would ever be elected to one of the main posts.

We aren’t in the Euro, we aren’t federalists, we aren’t in the core EU, and that is why we have to leave.

Our aims are contrary to theirs and harm both parties by staying in.

[FiF]

loafer123 said:

Adenauer said:

loafer123 said:

I have shocking news.

I know it is hard to believe, but the EU has chosen a German as President of the Commission, a French woman as head of the ECB and a Belgian as President of the Parliament.

You really couldn’t make it up.

Who else should they have chosen, a Brit?

Sorry to reply so slowly...busy day.

My point is exactly that.

Even if we stayed inside the EU there is no chance that a Brit would ever be elected to one of the main posts.

We aren’t in the Euro, we aren’t federalists, we aren’t in the core EU, and that is why we have to leave.

Our aims are contrary to theirs and harm both parties by staying in.

Which reinforces the point that a few of us have made, that if the eventual decision were to revoke and remain then no more of this half in half out you can't be a little bit pregnant malarkey, but really go in fully and go for it as a full and willing member in all respects. Where we have been on this over the years has not been to the benefit of either of us.

[F1GTRUeno]

Robertj21a said:

toppstuff said:

jsf said:

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

And you have just shown you have absolutely ZERO idea what a dictatorship is. I will give you a clue - the fact that you have the freedom to be online and talk such drivel is one indication. You are free to talk bks in public too - thats another. You can vote for what you want - thats another clue... you can also live where you want and do what you want. You can read what you want and go where you want. You are free to offer your ill informed opinions..

So where is this dictatorship exactly?? How does this compare to North Korea or China. You know, those dictatorships..

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

And how exactly will that make any difference whatsoever to your life?

Trust me, it really fking won't.

And think about general elections, does much change just because we can vote? Outside of a few swing seats, most votes are completely meaningless because they're either hard Labour or hard Tory strongholds and those in Westminster really, very clearly don't give a flying fk about you or I so how is that not still something akin to a dictatorship? 600 people looking out for themselves and not caring about any of us unless we've got millions or billions to give to them?

Seems like most of you want to feel like you make a difference but the sad fact is, short of a bloody revolution, none of us do and nothing much changes in our daily lives.

Because of that it's hard to give a st if I'm under control of the EU or British parliaments and from the shambles we've been the last three years, it's astonishing any of you want to be controlled by the 600 tossers in our government because they're shockingly inept at meeting the needs of the people.

Still forever going back to the point that when we eventually, hopefully leave this rock in future generations, will the small minded tribal folk that voted for Brexit because they for some odd reason give a st about the UK government controlling them rather than Europeans still be so small minded and tribal or will we be just 'Earth'? I'd like to think we'd be Earth but knowing what humans are like we're gonna end up fighting space war between each other aren't we?

[F1GTRUeno]

jsf said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

Being part of the EU hasn't made any difference to my life apart from shorter lines when going on holiday and back again and being able to travel and work throughout it with no issues, why would I vote for something potentially massively damaging to my future just so some pensioners can get their jollies off sticking two fingers up to Yurup?

I've grown up in a world and a generation that started to be and then fully was connected to the internet and converse with people from around the world daily and that's the future of the planet, why would I susbcribe to archaic notions such as patriotism and nationalism? I get why some people are proud to be British because it was drilled into them in a different time but it certainly wasn't to me and I couldn't care less about it nor who ultimately controls us legally when it makes such little difference. I go abroad and meet people of the same generation but different nationalities and not one of them has given the impression that they think we're doing the right thing and they're all completely confused as to why we want to go through with it and I can't say I blame them. Small, anecdotal sample size granted but given that we're less likely to be dead than older generations when the effects of Brexit come into play, it's food for my thoughts.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:13

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:36

[anonymous-user]

Robertj21a said:

toppstuff said:

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

Dodge.

What's the "unwanted interference", precisely, that apparently blights your life?

And for that matter, if you're only concerned about unwanted interference, what's the interference from the EU that you're currently enjoying and that you want? Aren't you going to miss that?

[bitchstewie]

"living in a dictatorship"

Christ.

[crankedup]

F1GTRUeno said:

Robertj21a said:

toppstuff said:

jsf said:

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

And you have just shown you have absolutely ZERO idea what a dictatorship is. I will give you a clue - the fact that you have the freedom to be online and talk such drivel is one indication. You are free to talk bks in public too - thats another. You can vote for what you want - thats another clue... you can also live where you want and do what you want. You can read what you want and go where you want. You are free to offer your ill informed opinions..

So where is this dictatorship exactly?? How does this compare to North Korea or China. You know, those dictatorships..

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

And how exactly will that make any difference whatsoever to your life?

Trust me, it really fking won't.

And think about general elections, does much change just because we can vote? Outside of a few swing seats, most votes are completely meaningless because they're either hard Labour or hard Tory strongholds and those in Westminster really, very clearly don't give a flying fk about you or I so how is that not still something akin to a dictatorship? 600 people looking out for themselves and not caring about any of us unless we've got millions or billions to give to them?

Seems like most of you want to feel like you make a difference but the sad fact is, short of a bloody revolution, none of us do and nothing much changes in our daily lives.

Because of that it's hard to give a st if I'm under control of the EU or British parliaments and from the shambles we've been the last three years, it's astonishing any of you want to be controlled by the 600 tossers in our government because they're shockingly inept at meeting the needs of the people.

Still forever going back to the point that when we eventually, hopefully leave this rock in future generations, will the small minded tribal folk that voted for Brexit because they for some odd reason give a st about the UK government controlling them rather than Europeans still be so small minded and tribal or will we be just 'Earth'? I'd like to think we'd be Earth but knowing what humans are like we're gonna end up fighting space war between each other aren't we?

Ever thought about standing as an MP or MEP.

[Randy Winkman]

F1GTRUeno said:

jsf said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

Being part of the EU hasn't made any difference to my life apart from shorter lines when going on holiday and back again and being able to travel and work throughout it with no issues, why would I vote for something potentially massively damaging to my future just so some pensioners can get their jollies off sticking two fingers up to Yurup?

I've grown up in a world and a generation that started to beconnected to the internet and converse with people from around the world daily and that's the future of the planet, why would I susbcribe to archaic notions such as patriotism and nationalism? I get why some people are proud to be British because it was drilled into them in a different time but it certainly wasn't to me and I couldn't care less about it nor who ultimately controls us legally when it makes such little difference.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:13

I have a very nice life too and have no reason to try to change it.

[psi310398]

bhstewie said:

"living in a dictatorship"

Christ.

Well, I'm not comparing Junker to Pol Pot but are you nonetheless being a tad complacent?

One of the characteristics of living in a dictatorship (as opposed to a functioning democracy) is having the powers that be ignore electoral results that aren't convenient...

[Tuna]

toppstuff said:

So you are saying there are NO 'strong reasons" then? Regard the "strong"as optional. Would that make a difference to the absurdity of the answer?

I can petition my MP to reduce tariffs on foodstuffs that we consume in vast quantities but don't grow or manufacture domestically - and they would be able to do so.

Sounds like a strong thing to me - reduce our food bill by up to 10%. And you know the answer about farmers, as we've had these discussions many time before.

Back under your rock, troll.