How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
psi310398 said:
Some of us never expected it to take less time and it is one of the reasons why the WA is obnoxious - if we were still under EU control fifteen years after the referendum had decided that we should leave, that would be a complete travesty. That is what the backstop ensures.
it ensures nothing of the sort.Leaver project rear.
psi310398 said:
Mrr T said:
EDITED FOR SPACE
Leaving the EU should have been planned as a multi stage plan.
Interesting arguments but don't they fall down on this last point? This was never on offer, nor likely to be on offer as the EU has absolutely no interest in making the UK's departure easy if done on equitable terms (it should but it doesn't).Leaving the EU should have been planned as a multi stage plan.
In answer to your questions. I do not see how the EU could object the EU/EFTA agreement is an existing agreement. The bigger question is would the EFTA members agree. I believe they would. While the UK would be the largest member it would give the current members more leverage with the EU.
The continued CU is a no brainer. Since it would be a normal agreement the UK could leave bilaterally. To do so the UK would have to have proper plans for the border in Ireland. However, a technology border only for tarrifs should be easier to build. Particularly, since they only need to apply to goods where tarrifs differ.
R North's plan anticipated the UK eventually leaving the CU and the SM. I disagree and thought it could result in a 2 stage EU, one the Euro zone moving to ever closer Union and second an outer integrated trending area.
The benefit of a multi stage plan is you can have choices at each stage.
Edited by Mrr T on Wednesday 4th September 13:09
banjowilly said:
psi310398 said:
Some of us
That has been, is & will continue to be the problem leave struggles to overcome.Mrr T said:
Tks. I cannot claim credit. The plan was crowd sourced by R North on Eureferendum.com.
In answer to your questions. I do not see how the EU could object the EU/EFTA agreement is an existing agreement. The bigger question is would the EFTA members agree. I believe they would. While the UK would be the largest member it would give the current members more leverage with the EU.
The continued CU is a no brainer. Since it would be a normal agreement the UK could leave bilaterally. To do so the UK would have to have proper plans for the border in Ireland. However, a technology border only for tarrifs should be easier to build. Particularly, since they only need to apply to goods where tarrifs differ.
R North's plan anticipated the UK eventually leaving the CU and the SM. I disagree and thought it could result in a 2 stage EU, one the Euro zone moving to ever closer Union and second an outer integrated trending area.
The benefit of a multi stage plan is you can have choices at eash stage.
I see, thanks. But on your last point, only so long as there were properly agreed exit clauses that could be exercised unilaterally (doubtless, at a cost in some cases)? In answer to your questions. I do not see how the EU could object the EU/EFTA agreement is an existing agreement. The bigger question is would the EFTA members agree. I believe they would. While the UK would be the largest member it would give the current members more leverage with the EU.
The continued CU is a no brainer. Since it would be a normal agreement the UK could leave bilaterally. To do so the UK would have to have proper plans for the border in Ireland. However, a technology border only for tarrifs should be easier to build. Particularly, since they only need to apply to goods where tarrifs differ.
R North's plan anticipated the UK eventually leaving the CU and the SM. I disagree and thought it could result in a 2 stage EU, one the Euro zone moving to ever closer Union and second an outer integrated trending area.
The benefit of a multi stage plan is you can have choices at eash stage.
Brooking10 said:
Mrr T said:
Not sure what a clever thick person is.
Pretty much anybody with a degree in Bob’s worldNot forgetting anybody who is not an alumnus of the SOHN.
And of course all people who work in the City or media and can be tagged “metropolitan”.
Except for those he likes who write for The DM.
Standard stuff
Wikki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_in_the_Game_(bo...
psi310398 said:
You neglect to take into account that the Canadians and the EU currently trade and people are not subsisting on tree bark and grass because it took so balls-achingly long to negotiate a simple trade deal. A trade deal is a 'nice to have' not a necessity.
The crucial difference in your example is that the EU-Canada agreement made trade easier between the two groups. Brexit - certainly in a no-deal form - will not make UK-EU trade easier, just the opposite.Rather amusing interview with Richard Burgon last night on labour’s EU negotiating approach
https://order-order.com/2019/09/04/burgons-appalli...
https://order-order.com/2019/09/04/burgons-appalli...
sunbeam alpine said:
The crucial difference in your example is that the EU-Canada agreement made trade easier between the two groups. Brexit - certainly in a no-deal form - will not make UK-EU trade easier, just the opposite.
Sure, but the impression being given was that the world was ending...A Winner Is You said:
It's been the plan from day one, and anyone who claims otherwise is either lying or terminally naive.
You may be able to argue this was the plan after Theressa May's red lines were drawn out. Her red lines meant nothing but a hard/ no deal brexit was possible. Obviously this is anathema to anyone who voted remain or doesn't want to cause major harm to the country. 
psi310398 said:
Mrr T said:
Tks. I cannot claim credit. The plan was crowd sourced by R North on Eureferendum.com.
In answer to your questions. I do not see how the EU could object the EU/EFTA agreement is an existing agreement. The bigger question is would the EFTA members agree. I believe they would. While the UK would be the largest member it would give the current members more leverage with the EU.
The continued CU is a no brainer. Since it would be a normal agreement the UK could leave bilaterally. To do so the UK would have to have proper plans for the border in Ireland. However, a technology border only for tarrifs should be easier to build. Particularly, since they only need to apply to goods where tarrifs differ.
R North's plan anticipated the UK eventually leaving the CU and the SM. I disagree and thought it could result in a 2 stage EU, one the Euro zone moving to ever closer Union and second an outer integrated trending area.
The benefit of a multi stage plan is you can have choices at eash stage.
I see, thanks. But on your last point, only so long as there were properly agreed exit clauses that could be exercised unilaterally (doubtless, at a cost in some cases)? In answer to your questions. I do not see how the EU could object the EU/EFTA agreement is an existing agreement. The bigger question is would the EFTA members agree. I believe they would. While the UK would be the largest member it would give the current members more leverage with the EU.
The continued CU is a no brainer. Since it would be a normal agreement the UK could leave bilaterally. To do so the UK would have to have proper plans for the border in Ireland. However, a technology border only for tarrifs should be easier to build. Particularly, since they only need to apply to goods where tarrifs differ.
R North's plan anticipated the UK eventually leaving the CU and the SM. I disagree and thought it could result in a 2 stage EU, one the Euro zone moving to ever closer Union and second an outer integrated trending area.
The benefit of a multi stage plan is you can have choices at eash stage.
Lord Marylebone said:
Good points there.
It seems bizarre to me that people cannot understand that our entire nation has been shaped and developed over the last 46 years by the fact that we are European.
Unfortunately, for most of that 46 years our own politicians have been, shall we say, less than straight with the public about our EEC /. EC / EU membership. Too many, of all parties, have been quick to claim the credit for benefits which have accrued to this country through EU membership, while at the same time trying to lay the blame for failures of home-grown policy at the EU's door. The result being that the average punter has no idea what influence (good or bad) our EU membership has had on this country.It seems bizarre to me that people cannot understand that our entire nation has been shaped and developed over the last 46 years by the fact that we are European.
It's sad that people on here are still handbagging each other three years on. It's not our fault. None of us, Remain or Leave voters, are to blame. We just formed an opinion and voted accordingly. The people to blame are those who over many years have deceived us over the costs and benefits of EU membership, gambled the future of the UK on a referendum that they arrogantly saw as a one-way bet, failed to make a convincing case for membership during the referendum campaign, and are now trying to engineer a situation where the Government just gives up, revokes A50 and scrubs the referendum vote without MPs having to get their hands dirty.
230TE said:
Lord Marylebone said:
Good points there.
It seems bizarre to me that people cannot understand that our entire nation has been shaped and developed over the last 46 years by the fact that we are European.
Unfortunately, for most of that 46 years our own politicians have been, shall we say, less than straight with the public about our EEC /. EC / EU membership. Too many, of all parties, have been quick to claim the credit for benefits which have accrued to this country through EU membership, while at the same time trying to lay the blame for failures of home-grown policy at the EU's door. The result being that the average punter has no idea what influence (good or bad) our EU membership has had on this country.It seems bizarre to me that people cannot understand that our entire nation has been shaped and developed over the last 46 years by the fact that we are European.
It's sad that people on here are still handbagging each other three years on. It's not our fault. None of us, Remain or Leave voters, are to blame. We just formed an opinion and voted accordingly. The people to blame are those who over many years have deceived us over the costs and benefits of EU membership, gambled the future of the UK on a referendum that they arrogantly saw as a one-way bet, failed to make a convincing case for membership during the referendum campaign, and are now trying to engineer a situation where the Government just gives up, revokes A50 and scrubs the referendum vote without MPs having to get their hands dirty.
We therefore get the MPs we deserve.
Mrr T said:
I am not sure you would have a specific exit clause. Few treaties do. But as a sensible and friendly nations the UK would present workable plans for the Irish border to the EU. A system which worked for both sides. Then offer to pay to develop it. Then when it's built the UK informs the EU its exiting the CU.
That's where I think the problem lies. I don't think either side considers the other sensible or friendly, sadly. And I wouldn't base UK foreign policy on that assumption. 
t about your particular posts. Nickgnome said:
You had the opportunity to chose the candidate that you voted for.
We therefore get the MPs we deserve.
As I said, "of all parties". The dishonesty has been endemic and institutional. For whom should I have voted? Especially without the benefit of hindsight since no-one saw this shambles coming in 1987, which was the first GE I was eligible to vote in.We therefore get the MPs we deserve.
Brooking10 said:
Mrr T said:
Not sure what a clever thick person is.
Pretty much anybody with a degree in Bob’s worldNot forgetting anybody who is not an alumnus of the SOHN.
And of course all people who work in the City or media and can be tagged “metropolitan”.
Except for those he likes who write for The DM.
Standard stuff
At long last you seem to have misunderstood just about everything (not for the first time).
Please keep going, it's becoming more amusing than I had ever expected.
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