How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[loafer123]

F1GTRUeno said:

jsf said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

Being part of the EU hasn't made any difference to my life apart from shorter lines when going on holiday and back again and being able to travel and work throughout it with no issues, why would I vote for something potentially massively damaging to my future just so some pensioners can get their jollies off sticking two fingers up to Yurup?

I've grown up in a world and a generation that started to beconnected to the internet and converse with people from around the world daily and that's the future of the planet, why would I susbcribe to archaic notions such as patriotism and nationalism? I get why some people are proud to be British because it was drilled into them in a different time but it certainly wasn't to me and I couldn't care less about it nor who ultimately controls us legally when it makes such little difference.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:13

I refer you to Hong Kong for a live example as to why self determination matters.

[F1GTRUeno]

psi310398 said:

bhstewie said:

"living in a dictatorship"

Christ.

Well, I'm not comparing Junker to Pol Pot but are you nonetheless being a tad complacent?

One of the characteristics of living in a dictatorship (as opposed to a functioning democracy) is having the powers that be ignore electoral results that aren't convenient...

They haven't ignored it though have they?

They've been negotiating for nearrly three years and now they've said they don't want to anymore, they're just gonna leave us to it.

[Helicopter123]

FiF said:

chrispmartha said:

Robertj21a said:

chrispmartha said:

chunder27 said:

In all honesty, all I feel is utter disregard for anyone in politics and the mainstream media who have simply made themselves look utterly pathetic throughout this whole process.

The vote went the way none of them wanted, why? Because they are all utterly out of touch with the working class people of this country (mainly outside London) in most areas, (even those that voted remain especially in Scotland did so as a backlash from their referendum years before, but I understand that and fair enough).

All people and business wants is a clear direction, that has never really been there despite 3 years of garbage from these rabbit in headlights tossers who can't get their own way.

If some businesses fail, so be it, others will arrive to replace them, it will take time, I am prepared for that and to cope with the downturn that will come with it, in my mind it is worth it. Those that failed in the main were heavily reliant on EU tariffs and bungs to exist in the first place, so obviously will suffer now.

We are not weak, incapable, hopeless at anything, we are a leading light in many ways (sadly masked by lack of ambition from our government who have relied on unskilled labour and mass immigration to bolster their back pockets and their paymasters in the service industries New Labour and the old Tories pushed in the late 20th century), we just need to have a strong leader and the willingness to have some balls and show these nimbi es that we can fight our own way, do our own thing and be strong.

The embarrassing side is not how we are viewed, it is more the way these so called politicians have dithered, wasted time and made us, the people who voted, a laughing stock, when all we want to do is bloody well get on with it!

Well personally I think that’s a load of patronising guff. What are classing as ‘working class people’?

And do you think the main Brexiteers Reese Mogg, Johnson or Farage have a grasp of what the average person on the street want, think or go through in life?

It's not patronising guff. It's written by someone who actually understands - seemingly much better than you. No wonder that Remainers still don't 'get it'.

Erm I said personally it’s patronising, what is a ‘working class person?’ And why does he think they (whoever they are) all voted for brexit, he no more ‘understands’ what other people think than anyone else.

Well let's have a look at the demographic of who voted for the Brexit party in EP2019 election.
Source, Clarke, Stewart &Whiteley



Strikes me that the post refocusing on 'working class people' for whatever intent was indeed patronising guff, although it does depend on definition of working class.

Some interesting stats that confirm supporters of the Brexit Party tend to be disproportionately older and less well educated.

[bitchstewie]

psi310398 said:

bhstewie said:

"living in a dictatorship"

Christ.

Well, I'm not comparing Junker to Pol Pot but are you nonetheless being a tad complacent?

One of the characteristics of living in a dictatorship (as opposed to a functioning democracy) is having the powers that be ignore electoral results that aren't convenient...

They haven't ignored it.

And no I'm not.

Go look at North Korea or China and tell me you think you live in anything remotely like a dictatorship.

The fact people even suggest it shows their judgement is gone.

[Tuna]

Helicopter123 said:

Some interesting stats that confirm supporters of the Brexit Party tend to be disproportionately older and less well educated.

Shall we compare the demographics with the average Labour or Conservative voter? I bet they're all 21 year old university graduates.

[anonymous-user]

majordad said:

Pity that the UK does not realise that the deal offered to Theresa May is the best that will be offered.

A lot of us do, which is why we want our government to prepare properly to leave with no EU WA being signed.

As the other party wont renegotiate and the HOC wont ratifty the deal, its the only option left if the referendum result is to be carried out.

[psi310398]

F1GTRUeno said:

They haven't ignored it though have they?

They've been negotiating for nearrly three years and now they've said they don't want to anymore, they're just gonna leave us to it.

Erm, you forget the Dutch, Danish, French, Irish etc referenda that were just overridden..

[DeepEnd]

Helicopter123 said:

Some interesting stats that confirm supporters of the Brexit Party tend to be disproportionately older and less well educated.

Could explain Martin and others with ‘strong’ reasons to leave. That bass fishing was a classic.

I see that Moodys have offered an opinion. “We believe that, without an agreement, the UK economy would likely enter a recession.”

Are these experts to be listened to?
And even if they are, is a self imposed recession a price worth paying?

[psi310398]

bhstewie said:

They haven't ignored it.

And no I'm not.

Go look at North Korea or China and tell me you think you live in anything remotely like a dictatorship.

The fact people even suggest it shows their judgement is gone.

The fact that three years later and we're still not out suggests that they have. And that they have no intention of effecting the exit, if they can possibly avoid it. And they are systematically abusing state resources (e.g. the BBC, the civil service) to propagandise their position. More Mugabe than Lincoln in my view.

There are other less extreme dictatorships available to examine, with some aspects of representation/electoral activity.

I imagine you can dissent quite a lot in Singapore, Bosnia or Morocco, for example, before the secret police turn up.

[wc98]

bhstewie said:

For the moment yes.

From what I know of it that appointment can't be defended.

Where I struggle, and the obvious issue, is that it's one of thousands of issues that a simple "In" or "Out" is supposed to solve.

For example would I change my mind to "Leave" and risk the break-up of the union as a result? No.

Do I think it's good to put someone convicted of negligence in charge of a bank? No.

yep, the same thought process that led me to vote brexit party at the eu elections. sometimes people are willing to ignore some downsides when it comes to voting for those they think will implement something they feel strongly about.

i think you found it hard to understand the mind set that allowed people to support farage/brexit party even when there were some issues they weren't happy about. hopefully now you understand where those people were coming from.

[slow_poke]

psi310398 said:

F1GTRUeno said:

They haven't ignored it though have they?

They've been negotiating for nearrly three years and now they've said they don't want to anymore, they're just gonna leave us to it.

Erm, you forget the Dutch, Danish, French, Irish etc referenda that were just overridden..

Well, except the Irish one wasn't overridden, was it? They rejected it the first time around, their Govt surveyed around for what the Irish didn't particularly want, went back to Brussels and re-negotiated the problematic piece of text which was passed on a second referendum. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

[psi310398]

slow_poke said:

Well, except the Irish one wasn't overridden, was it? They rejected it the first time around, their Govt surveyed around for what the Irish didn't particularly want, went back to Brussels and re-negotiated the problematic piece of text which was passed on a second referendum. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

If so, is it not interesting just how many Irish voters believe that the revised text was a fig leaf and that nothing in substance changed between the two iterations...

[F1GTRUeno]

loafer123 said:

F1GTRUeno said:

jsf said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

Being part of the EU hasn't made any difference to my life apart from shorter lines when going on holiday and back again and being able to travel and work throughout it with no issues, why would I vote for something potentially massively damaging to my future just so some pensioners can get their jollies off sticking two fingers up to Yurup?

I've grown up in a world and a generation that started to beconnected to the internet and converse with people from around the world daily and that's the future of the planet, why would I susbcribe to archaic notions such as patriotism and nationalism? I get why some people are proud to be British because it was drilled into them in a different time but it certainly wasn't to me and I couldn't care less about it nor who ultimately controls us legally when it makes such little difference.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:13

I refer you to Hong Kong for a live example as to why self determination matters.

Come back to me when it works out for the people of HK.

And then I can point to the first post I made in this thread where I said short of a bloody revolution, nothing changes.

It's not really a good example.

[Tuna]

DeepEnd said:

And even if they are, is a self imposed recession a price worth paying?

Hmmm... a recession as a member of the EU with Christine Lagarde in charge of the ECB, or a recession out of the EU with Liz Truss as Chancellor?

[F1GTRUeno]

Tuna said:

Hmmm... a recession as a member of the EU with Christine Lagarde in charge of the ECB, or a recession out of the EU with Liz Truss as Chancellor?

A recession is a recession.

[bitchstewie]

wc98 said:

yep, the same thought process that led me to vote brexit party at the eu elections. sometimes people are willing to ignore some downsides when it comes to voting for those they think will implement something they feel strongly about.

i think you found it hard to understand the mind set that allowed people to support farage/brexit party even when there were some issues they weren't happy about. hopefully now you understand where those people were coming from.

I'm not defending the appointment of Christine Lagarde because from what I can see of it there is no way she should be in that job.

However I don't think you can draw a parallel between voting to stay in the EU and who gets nominated for one post in the EU and voting directly for the man who did this.



Fully appreciate different people will have different thresholds for what constitute "some downsides" but honest to god that poster is like something from 1930's Germany.

Literally.



And of course there's the AfD thing.

So if you want to think I'm ignoring downsides then fair enough, I'll take my chances on how my judgement looks on that one v that of the people voting for that mans politics.

[bitchstewie]

psi310398 said:

The fact that three years later and we're still not out suggests that they have. And that they have no intention of effecting the exit, if they can possibly avoid it. And they are systematically abusing state resources (e.g. the BBC, the civil service) to propagandise their position. More Mugabe than Lincoln in my view.

There are other less extreme dictatorships available to examine, with some aspects of representation/electoral activity.

I imagine you can dissent quite a lot in Singapore, Bosnia or Morocco, for example, before the secret police turn up.

Mugabe.

Right.

[psi310398]

bhstewie said:

I'm not defending the appointment of Christine Lagarde because from what I can see of it there is no way she should be in that job.

However I don't think you can draw a parallel between voting to stay in the EU and who gets nominated for one post in the EU and voting directly for the man who did this.

EDIT

Actually, I think you will find it was a woman acting unilaterally without any regard for her European neighbours at all who invited that wave of economic migrants whose subsequent assimilation is causing so much trouble for several European countries.

[loafer123]

F1GTRUeno said:

loafer123 said:

F1GTRUeno said:

jsf said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

Being part of the EU hasn't made any difference to my life apart from shorter lines when going on holiday and back again and being able to travel and work throughout it with no issues, why would I vote for something potentially massively damaging to my future just so some pensioners can get their jollies off sticking two fingers up to Yurup?

I've grown up in a world and a generation that started to beconnected to the internet and converse with people from around the world daily and that's the future of the planet, why would I susbcribe to archaic notions such as patriotism and nationalism? I get why some people are proud to be British because it was drilled into them in a different time but it certainly wasn't to me and I couldn't care less about it nor who ultimately controls us legally when it makes such little difference.

Edited by F1GTRUeno on Wednesday 3rd July 19:13

I refer you to Hong Kong for a live example as to why self determination matters.

Come back to me when it works out for the people of HK.

And then I can point to the first post I made in this thread where I said short of a bloody revolution, nothing changes.

It's not really a good example.

I think you have missed the point.

It isn’t working out for HK because their neighbouring rulers are ignoring local law and international treaty and are overreaching their power.

So much for one country, two systems.

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

wc98 said:

yep, the same thought process that led me to vote brexit party at the eu elections. sometimes people are willing to ignore some downsides when it comes to voting for those they think will implement something they feel strongly about.

i think you found it hard to understand the mind set that allowed people to support farage/brexit party even when there were some issues they weren't happy about. hopefully now you understand where those people were coming from.

I'm not defending the appointment of Christine Lagarde because from what I can see of it there is no way she should be in that job.

However I don't think you can draw a parallel between voting to stay in the EU and who gets nominated for one post in the EU and voting directly for the man who did this.



Fully appreciate different people will have different thresholds for what constitute "some downsides" but honest to god that poster is like something
from 1930's Germany.

Literally.



And of course there's the AfD thing.

So if you want to think I'm ignoring downsides then fair enough, I'll take my chances on how my judgement looks on that one v that of the people voting for that mans politics.

Have the last 3 years passed you by?

The same moronic crap churned out, month by month, now year by year.. beyond pathetic.

A photoshop of Merkel shepherding the hordes of engineers, doctors and potential rocket scientists would have been more accurate

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 3rd July 20:49