How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
Tuna said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I would assume that as Nigel was "personally" happy to stand in front of that poster he was quite happy with the disgusting overtones.
What exact overtones? The ones people discovered after the poster was launched?It kinda matters, because if you're going to apply guilt by association, it's no good making the association after the event. The Nazis produced enough documentaries that I bet I could find some footage matching just about any public event in the UK.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Interesting that you consider giving a speech at a rally having been personally invited to do so to be "merely standing in the same room", almost as if he travelled there and found himself giving a speech by accident?
You mean that accepting an invite to meetings by a 'bad guy' automatically makes you the same as them? Someone ought to tell Obama, Blair, May, Cameron, Corbyn and all the others.This guilt by association thing is fun.
The poster was disgusting full stop.
And it's a nice way of dismissing Farage's associations, invited to meetings by a "bad guy", because of course all of those people you mentioned have personally given speeches at Far Right rallies and personally supported people like Roy Moore rather than doing it as part of the office they hold when they may not choose to do it personally.
The point there is that when you're in Government, rather than having tried and failed seven times to get into Parliament, you do have to sometimes sit down next to people you may not want to, the likes of China, Saudi Arabia etc. and I don't like it but I get it has to be done.
When you're Farage you do have a choice.
And even Farage had the sense to admit supporting Roy Moore was a mistake rather than try to justify it because hey, other people do bad stuff too.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Stupid of Bercow.
He does appear to have realised the error of his ways unlike Nigel "Breaking point poster" and "Special guest speaker at an AfD rally" Farage.
Strange how the Brexit Party gang seem a little quiet on that latter one.
Does anyone know more about Darren Grimes fine from the Electoral Commission being overturned?
I heard him on LBC this morning and he came across very well and rather hard done by.
He was fined £20,000, the maximum possible by the electoral commission for ticking the wrong box on a registration form something they were aware of but ignored for two years... He Crowd funded an appeal and won despite the 'other side spending almost 1/2 million of taxpayers money at the county court trying to avoid it. If you still think that the EC is not biased and being backed up by others in authority you need to remove those blinkers... While it might be to the remain sides advantage at the moment once again like Bercow changing the rules, Parliament not carrying out the result of a referendum or the police allowing protesters to run amock, in the long run supporting them because they are 'on your side' will come back and bite you in the arse as one day it will be you on the receiving side. He does appear to have realised the error of his ways unlike Nigel "Breaking point poster" and "Special guest speaker at an AfD rally" Farage.
Strange how the Brexit Party gang seem a little quiet on that latter one.
Does anyone know more about Darren Grimes fine from the Electoral Commission being overturned?
I heard him on LBC this morning and he came across very well and rather hard done by.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I would assume that as Nigel was "personally" happy to stand in front of that poster he was quite happy with the disgusting overtones.
What exact overtones? The ones people discovered after the poster was launched?It kinda matters, because if you're going to apply guilt by association, it's no good making the association after the event. The Nazis produced enough documentaries that I bet I could find some footage matching just about any public event in the UK.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Interesting that you consider giving a speech at a rally having been personally invited to do so to be "merely standing in the same room", almost as if he travelled there and found himself giving a speech by accident?
You mean that accepting an invite to meetings by a 'bad guy' automatically makes you the same as them? Someone ought to tell Obama, Blair, May, Cameron, Corbyn and all the others.This guilt by association thing is fun.
The poster was disgusting full stop.
And it's a nice way of dismissing Farage's associations, invited to meetings by a "bad guy", because of course all of those people you mentioned have personally given speeches at Far Right rallies and personally supported people like Roy Moore rather than doing it as part of the office they hold when they may not choose to do it personally.
The point there is that when you're in Government, rather than having tried and failed seven times to get into Parliament, you do have to sometimes sit down next to people you may not want to, the likes of China, Saudi Arabia etc. and I don't like it but I get it has to be done.
When you're Farage you do have a choice.
And even Farage had the sense to admit supporting Roy Moore was a mistake rather than try to justify it because hey, other people do bad stuff too.
It’s been done to death now though with absolutely no-one prepared to defend its use.
Vanden Saab said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Stupid of Bercow.
He does appear to have realised the error of his ways unlike Nigel "Breaking point poster" and "Special guest speaker at an AfD rally" Farage.
Strange how the Brexit Party gang seem a little quiet on that latter one.
Does anyone know more about Darren Grimes fine from the Electoral Commission being overturned?
I heard him on LBC this morning and he came across very well and rather hard done by.
He was fined £20,000, the maximum possible by the electoral commission for ticking the wrong box on a registration form something they were aware of but ignored for two years... He Crowd funded an appeal and won despite the 'other side spending almost 1/2 million of taxpayers money at the county court trying to avoid it. If you still think that the EC is not biased and being backed up by others in authority you need to remove those blinkers... While it might be to the remain sides advantage at the moment once again like Bercow changing the rules, Parliament not carrying out the result of a referendum or the police allowing protesters to run amock, in the long run supporting them because they are 'on your side' will come back and bite you in the arse as one day it will be you on the receiving side. He does appear to have realised the error of his ways unlike Nigel "Breaking point poster" and "Special guest speaker at an AfD rally" Farage.
Strange how the Brexit Party gang seem a little quiet on that latter one.
Does anyone know more about Darren Grimes fine from the Electoral Commission being overturned?
I heard him on LBC this morning and he came across very well and rather hard done by.
My understanding is that he actually ASKED the Electoral Commission what he should do and they mis-advised him. (we'll have to assume genuine mistake) Then nailed him for it!
Helicopter123 said:
That poster just looks worse and worse.
It’s been done to death now though with absolutely no-one prepared to defend its use.
Was it an accurate depiction of the immigrant demographics? If so then there's nothing to defend. If it's staged or photoshopped then it is unacceptable. Reports generally show it to be an accurate depiction.It’s been done to death now though with absolutely no-one prepared to defend its use.
If you believe that it is any way fake then please provide your evidence.
Helicopter123 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I would assume that as Nigel was "personally" happy to stand in front of that poster he was quite happy with the disgusting overtones.
What exact overtones? The ones people discovered after the poster was launched?It kinda matters, because if you're going to apply guilt by association, it's no good making the association after the event. The Nazis produced enough documentaries that I bet I could find some footage matching just about any public event in the UK.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Interesting that you consider giving a speech at a rally having been personally invited to do so to be "merely standing in the same room", almost as if he travelled there and found himself giving a speech by accident?
You mean that accepting an invite to meetings by a 'bad guy' automatically makes you the same as them? Someone ought to tell Obama, Blair, May, Cameron, Corbyn and all the others.This guilt by association thing is fun.
The poster was disgusting full stop.
And it's a nice way of dismissing Farage's associations, invited to meetings by a "bad guy", because of course all of those people you mentioned have personally given speeches at Far Right rallies and personally supported people like Roy Moore rather than doing it as part of the office they hold when they may not choose to do it personally.
The point there is that when you're in Government, rather than having tried and failed seven times to get into Parliament, you do have to sometimes sit down next to people you may not want to, the likes of China, Saudi Arabia etc. and I don't like it but I get it has to be done.
When you're Farage you do have a choice.
And even Farage had the sense to admit supporting Roy Moore was a mistake rather than try to justify it because hey, other people do bad stuff too.
It’s been done to death now though with absolutely no-one prepared to defend its use.
digimeistter said:
Helicopter123 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Tuna said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I would assume that as Nigel was "personally" happy to stand in front of that poster he was quite happy with the disgusting overtones.
What exact overtones? The ones people discovered after the poster was launched?It kinda matters, because if you're going to apply guilt by association, it's no good making the association after the event. The Nazis produced enough documentaries that I bet I could find some footage matching just about any public event in the UK.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Interesting that you consider giving a speech at a rally having been personally invited to do so to be "merely standing in the same room", almost as if he travelled there and found himself giving a speech by accident?
You mean that accepting an invite to meetings by a 'bad guy' automatically makes you the same as them? Someone ought to tell Obama, Blair, May, Cameron, Corbyn and all the others.This guilt by association thing is fun.
The poster was disgusting full stop.
And it's a nice way of dismissing Farage's associations, invited to meetings by a "bad guy", because of course all of those people you mentioned have personally given speeches at Far Right rallies and personally supported people like Roy Moore rather than doing it as part of the office they hold when they may not choose to do it personally.
The point there is that when you're in Government, rather than having tried and failed seven times to get into Parliament, you do have to sometimes sit down next to people you may not want to, the likes of China, Saudi Arabia etc. and I don't like it but I get it has to be done.
When you're Farage you do have a choice.
And even Farage had the sense to admit supporting Roy Moore was a mistake rather than try to justify it because hey, other people do bad stuff too.
It’s been done to death now though with absolutely no-one prepared to defend its use.
It’s gone OK hasn’t it? She seems to find a lot to chuckle about recently, anyway.........
Tuna said:
Your ability to forgive is exemplary. 
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Defending both Nigel and the poster.
Supporting free speech is not the same as supporting what is actually being said. Do you support Nigel’s obvious support for AfD?
No one is shrugging off Bercow’s association with that group; if he still had those views he would be held in just as much contempt as Farage. Bercow has said they were boneheaded and it was a mistake. Pretty clear, though it still does raise some questions over judgement.
Still very different as I don’t see Farage calling his poster or AfD boneheaded - on the contrary he still seems quite proud of his ugly views, being careful to just stay the right side of the line.
Once again the reader is left wondering.
DeepEnd said:
Tuna said:
Your ability to forgive is exemplary.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Defending both Nigel and the poster.
Supporting free speech is not the same as supporting what is actually being said. Do you support Nigel’s obvious support for AfD?
No one is shrugging off Bercow’s association with that group; if he still had those views he would be held in just as much contempt as Farage. Bercow has said they were boneheaded and it was a mistake. Pretty clear, though it still does raise some questions over judgement.
Still very different as I don’t see Farage calling his poster or AfD boneheaded - on the contrary he still seems quite proud of his ugly views, being careful to just stay the right side of the line.
Once again the reader is left wondering.
digimeistter said:
DeepEnd said:
Tuna said:
Your ability to forgive is exemplary.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Defending both Nigel and the poster.
Supporting free speech is not the same as supporting what is actually being said. Do you support Nigel’s obvious support for AfD?
No one is shrugging off Bercow’s association with that group; if he still had those views he would be held in just as much contempt as Farage. Bercow has said they were boneheaded and it was a mistake. Pretty clear, though it still does raise some questions over judgement.
Still very different as I don’t see Farage calling his poster or AfD boneheaded - on the contrary he still seems quite proud of his ugly views, being careful to just stay the right side of the line.
Once again the reader is left wondering.
Vanden Saab said:
digimeistter said:
DeepEnd said:
Tuna said:
Your ability to forgive is exemplary.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Out of interest, did Nigel personally design or select that poster, and do you have any evidence whatsoever that the people who did design it went through obscure film archives to make sure it looked a bit like a particular still from a documentary produced over 80 years ago? The comparison is distasteful, for sure, but the link you're making seems to have come after, not before the poster was launched.
And also - the AfD rally - you mean the third largest party in Germany, the largest opposition party with 94 seats in the parliament? I know you're a fan of guilt by association, but this isn't some minority group that can be written off as extremist nutters. Do you believe they should be no-platformed? How about other populists, like Trump?
It's fascinating that being a member of a club with extremist views can be shrugged off as 'youthful ignorance', yet merely standing in the same room as people who you don't like is seen as gross indecency.
Defending both Nigel and the poster.
Supporting free speech is not the same as supporting what is actually being said. Do you support Nigel’s obvious support for AfD?
No one is shrugging off Bercow’s association with that group; if he still had those views he would be held in just as much contempt as Farage. Bercow has said they were boneheaded and it was a mistake. Pretty clear, though it still does raise some questions over judgement.
Still very different as I don’t see Farage calling his poster or AfD boneheaded - on the contrary he still seems quite proud of his ugly views, being careful to just stay the right side of the line.
Once again the reader is left wondering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNh3312dTtA
One of the most sensible speeches I've heard regarding Brexit
It is a shame she doesn't have leather and jackboots on though!
digimeistter said:
Laughable really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNh3312dTtA
One of the most sensible speeches I've heard regarding Brexit
It is a shame she doesn't have leather and jackboots on though!
Pretty impressive.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNh3312dTtA
One of the most sensible speeches I've heard regarding Brexit
It is a shame she doesn't have leather and jackboots on though!
digimeistter said:
What's wrong with the AFD?
“Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida. Parts of the AfD have racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism and identitarianism.”Any of those qualities an issue for you?
DeepEnd said:
digimeistter said:
What's wrong with the AFD?
“Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida. Parts of the AfD have racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism and identitarianism.”Any of those qualities an issue for you?
It's probably BS, like most labels on people and political parties the happy clappers and professionally offended are happy to brand with at a whim.
It's getting boring.
ETA What the actual f
k is "Identitariansm" 
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 20th July 21:37
Vanden Saab said:
He was fined £20,000, the maximum possible by the electoral commission for ticking the wrong box on a registration form something they were aware of but ignored for two years... He Crowd funded an appeal and won despite the 'other side spending almost 1/2 million of taxpayers money at the county court trying to avoid it. If you still think that the EC is not biased and being backed up by others in authority you need to remove those blinkers... While it might be to the remain sides advantage at the moment once again like Bercow changing the rules, Parliament not carrying out the result of a referendum or the police allowing protesters to run amock, in the long run supporting them because they are 'on your side' will come back and bite you in the arse as one day it will be you on the receiving side.
From what I've read the EC have questions to answer on the way they handled this from start to finish.Presumably more will be made public but it does give me faith that between the likes of the EC and our courts you can get a fair hearing.
On the AfD point, anyone can give an impressive speech, I've seen the one digimeistter linked to before and at face value there's nothing especially controversial about it.
As much as I dislike the Trumps and Farage's they can too and they will say some things that I agree with.
Some light reading on the AfD, just stuff anyone could find using Google.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46882968
https://www.melaniephillips.com/political-earthqua...
https://www.dw.com/en/afd-what-you-need-to-know-ab...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-politics...
Do you think it's good judgement to speak at one of their rallies?
Edited by bhstewie on Saturday 20th July 19:05
hstewie on Saturday 20th July 19:05DeepEnd said:
“Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida. Parts of the AfD have racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism and identitarianism.”
Any of those qualities an issue for you?
So they are a mix of both Labour and Conservative values then.Any of those qualities an issue for you?
DeepEnd said:
digimeistter said:
What's wrong with the AFD?
“Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida. Parts of the AfD have racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism and identitarianism.”Any of those qualities an issue for you?
voyds9 said:
DeepEnd said:
“Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida. Parts of the AfD have racist, Islamophobic, anti-Semitic and xenophobic tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism and identitarianism.”
Any of those qualities an issue for you?
So they are a mix of both Labour and Conservative values then.Any of those qualities an issue for you?
Did any of the anti Brexit PH crowd go ? There was a balloon and some big red bus rage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49058...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49058...
Otis Criblecoblis said:
Did any of the anti Brexit PH crowd go ? There was a balloon and some big red bus rage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49058...
A bunch of Idiots protesting because they think it's in vogue. Many saying that there should be a General Election as the next Prime Minister will be chosen by the party members rather than the populace.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49058...
Unbelivable really.
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