How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
Gilbertron said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: As for the AfD here's their manifesto in English
https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/111/20...
You'll notice quite a few references to specific anti-Islamic policies.
6/128... Which one do find particularly egregious?https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/111/20...
You'll notice quite a few references to specific anti-Islamic policies.
The point here isn't so much about the AfD it's why anyone who wants to leave the EU would feel the need to align themselves with people who hold that kind of sentiment.
That kind of thing did for UKIP over here along with some other things.
DeepEnd said:
In considering the linked manifesto for AfD, what about this sentence :
“Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.”
Is this OK for you?
Like these laws for foreigners living in Germany?“Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.”
Is this OK for you?
https://www.sachsen.de/en/1454.htm
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: When a party has a whole section in their manifesto specifically on Islam you can take a good guess at what they stand for and the direction they're headed and who is going to be on the receiving end.
The point here isn't so much about the AfD it's why anyone who wants to leave the EU would feel the need to align themselves with people who hold that kind of sentiment.
.
You mean policies to promote the Christian democratic principles upon which Germany was founded and ensure it retains its identity?The point here isn't so much about the AfD it's why anyone who wants to leave the EU would feel the need to align themselves with people who hold that kind of sentiment.
.
Are you about to scream Wacist?
As said, hardly brown shirts dragging people from houses?
Dr Jekyll said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
If a group of people do not want our MPs to act in a certain way, there is a perfectly well established and constitutional way of democratically resolving the issue - the electorate express their will at the ballot box and vote in a majority of MPs who will support a no-deal Brexit. If they succeed, that is democratic. If they do not, that is also democratic. Proroguing parliament to prevent MPs blocking a no-deal Brexit is deeply undemocratic and will have far-reaching consequences for our global credibility and national stability.
The electorate has expressed their will and voted in a majority that supported having a referendum and abiding by the result, then voted to Leave, not 'Leave if there's a deal', not 'Leave if the EU let's us', just Leave.Then the electorate voted in another majority who also supported leaving.
A pattern is starting to emerge......
Nothing was in their manifestos about a "Deal or No deal" just Leave and respect the result of a democratic vote...................and that is what they should be doing not blocking....had MP's not wished to follow the electorate wishes and ignored their manifestos then they should not have stood for election....................in fact perhaps they shouldn't have delegated their responsibilities by giving the great unwashed a referendum in the 1st place.
As for " Brexit is deeply undemocratic and will have far-reaching consequences for our global credibility and national stability." I think Mr ClaphmamGT3 has got this completely arse about tit.;)
digimeistter said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: When a party has a whole section in their manifesto specifically on Islam you can take a good guess at what they stand for and the direction they're headed and who is going to be on the receiving end.
The point here isn't so much about the AfD it's why anyone who wants to leave the EU would feel the need to align themselves with people who hold that kind of sentiment.
.
You mean policies to promote the Christian democratic principles upon which Germany was founded and ensure it retains its identity?The point here isn't so much about the AfD it's why anyone who wants to leave the EU would feel the need to align themselves with people who hold that kind of sentiment.
.
Are you about to scream Wacist?
As said, hardly brown shirts dragging people from houses?
It isn't "swinging people from lamp posts" or "brown shirts dragging people from houses" but it all starts somewhere, and along the way people will make excuses for it or turn a blind eye.
I think people would be less forgiving if it was a Labour manifesto and they had pages and policies dedicated to singling out Jews.
ClaphamGT3 said:
alfie2244 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Those would be the same 'democracy subverters' who understand and respect the fundamental constitutional principle of the supremacy of parliament?
One of the dismal realities of this whole situation is that fatuous sound bites like "will of the people" have been latched onto by the stupid and the gullible and are now treated as articles of faith rather than the transient, meaningless slogan that they were and given the same or greater status by the easily influenced as 800 years of established constitutional principle
You just don't get it do you?One of the dismal realities of this whole situation is that fatuous sound bites like "will of the people" have been latched onto by the stupid and the gullible and are now treated as articles of faith rather than the transient, meaningless slogan that they were and given the same or greater status by the easily influenced as 800 years of established constitutional principle
The will of the people/we won/people’s vote is bandied as some sort of catch-all justification for whatever individual interpretation of Brexit the user has. More worryingly, this is also used as a justification for ignoring or even actively arguing against parliament, the judiciary and our international treaty obligations. None of those are judged to matter because “the people” have spoken.
Even in this thread today, John Major is vilified for having the temerity to suggestbthat, if necessary he will use judicial process to challenge the legitimacy of any decision to prorogue parliament when, in reality, anyone who in any way cared for our country and it’s ongoing stability would be deeply troubled that he should even have to.
The proroguing issue is, in itself, a good example of the flawed thinking of the Brexiteers who support the idea. If a group of people do not want our MPs to act in a certain way, there is a perfectly well established and constitutional way of democratically resolving the issue - the electorate express their will at the ballot box and vote in a majority of MPs who will support a no-deal Brexit. If they succeed, that is democratic. If they do not, that is also democratic. Proroguing parliament to prevent MPs blocking a no-deal Brexit is deeply undemocratic and will have far-reaching consequences for our global credibility and national stability.
If you cannot get that setting the Government on a collision course with parliament is a bad thing, then this country is in an even more parlous state than I imagined
https://order-order.com/2019/07/10/john-major-pror...
I have no doubt whatsoever that you and a large proportion of Remainers,
would prorogue parliament in an instant if it would overturn the democratic decision
to leave the EU. Whatever the final negotiations look like.
powerstroke said:
CaptainSlow said:
Earthdweller said:
Reports in various press this morning of a number of EU countries reaching out to Boris independently of Brussels to avoid a no deal
Meanwhile Merkel has said that the draft agreement could be rewritten to effectively remove the backstop
The word is compromise apparently and some countries notably Germany Belgium France and Ireland will do what’s necessary to avoid a “no deal” Brexit
Maybe .. having someone who wants to leave is what needed after all
Quite, seems Ireland is now publicly admitting a no-deal scenario would turn the whole island into an economic wasteland. I wonder if they're getting concerned about where the next bail out is coming from. Meanwhile Merkel has said that the draft agreement could be rewritten to effectively remove the backstop
The word is compromise apparently and some countries notably Germany Belgium France and Ireland will do what’s necessary to avoid a “no deal” Brexit
Maybe .. having someone who wants to leave is what needed after all
Looks like business will be leading the politicians from now on ....Result .....
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:DeepEnd said:
This article was linked earlier
https://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/19/week-in-re...
The bit that I would hope some posters here would read carefully and reflect upon is here:
“But waiting for fascism is not about sitting at home with a checklist, contenting yourself that everything is fine until someone ticks every single box. It's about being vigilant about the type of political behaviour which leads to fascism.“
There are plenty of warning signs over the kind of messages being pushed out. One member of AfD has said people can be shot at the border.
The links have been posted, you must be aware of this, and yet through your post you are trying to create an impression that AfD is normal - perhaps this is to try and protect TBP and Nigel, but it is not a healthy thing to be doing.
Quite.https://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/19/week-in-re...
The bit that I would hope some posters here would read carefully and reflect upon is here:
“But waiting for fascism is not about sitting at home with a checklist, contenting yourself that everything is fine until someone ticks every single box. It's about being vigilant about the type of political behaviour which leads to fascism.“
There are plenty of warning signs over the kind of messages being pushed out. One member of AfD has said people can be shot at the border.
The links have been posted, you must be aware of this, and yet through your post you are trying to create an impression that AfD is normal - perhaps this is to try and protect TBP and Nigel, but it is not a healthy thing to be doing.
It's odd because with the information I posted earlier I genuinely thought there would be some comments or enough there to cause people to have a few questions.
Apparently not though.
The information is there and people choose to turn a blind eye.
It's quite sickening.
ClaphamGT3 said:
One of the dismal realities of this whole situation is that fatuous sound bites like "will of the people" have been latched onto by the stupid and the gullible
Fortunately we have the brightest critical thinkers to show them the error of their ways."Those who know what's best for us must rise and save use from ourselves"
Edited by Crackie on Sunday 21st July 12:35
Robertj21a said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:DeepEnd said:
This article was linked earlier
https://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/19/week-in-re...
The bit that I would hope some posters here would read carefully and reflect upon is here:
“But waiting for fascism is not about sitting at home with a checklist, contenting yourself that everything is fine until someone ticks every single box. It's about being vigilant about the type of political behaviour which leads to fascism.“
There are plenty of warning signs over the kind of messages being pushed out. One member of AfD has said people can be shot at the border.
The links have been posted, you must be aware of this, and yet through your post you are trying to create an impression that AfD is normal - perhaps this is to try and protect TBP and Nigel, but it is not a healthy thing to be doing.
Quite.https://politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/19/week-in-re...
The bit that I would hope some posters here would read carefully and reflect upon is here:
“But waiting for fascism is not about sitting at home with a checklist, contenting yourself that everything is fine until someone ticks every single box. It's about being vigilant about the type of political behaviour which leads to fascism.“
There are plenty of warning signs over the kind of messages being pushed out. One member of AfD has said people can be shot at the border.
The links have been posted, you must be aware of this, and yet through your post you are trying to create an impression that AfD is normal - perhaps this is to try and protect TBP and Nigel, but it is not a healthy thing to be doing.
It's odd because with the information I posted earlier I genuinely thought there would be some comments or enough there to cause people to have a few questions.
Apparently not though.
The information is there and people choose to turn a blind eye.
It's quite sickening.
But this will occur when I decide, not when some jumped up posters on a forum
dictate I should.
Crackie said:
Good job we have the brightest critical thinkers to show them the error of their way.
"Those who know what's best for us must rise and save use from ourselves"
Sometimes you just have to do what you just have to do "Those who know what's best for us must rise and save use from ourselves"
Personally I stand to do well out of the immediate chaos any Brexit Deal, and especially a No Deal is going to to cause and yet I genuinely see it as the worst possible option for our country and future prosperity.
DeepEnd said:
“But waiting for fascism is not about sitting at home with a checklist, contenting yourself that everything is fine until someone ticks every single box. It's about being vigilant about the type of political behaviour which leads to fascism.“
This has been posted on PH recently; I don't know whether or not you saw it. https://www.politico.eu/article/magid-magid-whats-...The points made by Majid Majid hardly show Brussels and Strasbourg up as being a paragon...……..quite the opposite. Only 30 of the 751 new intake of MEP's are people of colour and he was asked to leave because he didn't look like he belonged.
"Instead of reaching out people here are burying their heads in the sand."
" Next to nobody in Brussels has any clue what the European Union truly stands for — beyond a flag and an anthem — and more crucially, where it is heading". "I feel as though I’ve left the shores of the real life and stepped into a maze of bureaucracy, needless technicalities and political performance."
Majid Majid has been conspicuously pro EU; I think the comment in bold was remarkably condemning. What do you think?
gooner1 said:
Exactly, I have said I would read the link BS posted, or any other.
But this will occur when I decide, not when some jumped up posters on a forum
dictate I should.
Nobody's dictated anything to you.But this will occur when I decide, not when some jumped up posters on a forum
dictate I should.
I posted some links having been asked what the issues were with the AfD and expressed surprise that nobody seems to have read them.
Gilbertron said:
DeepEnd said:
In considering the linked manifesto for AfD, what about this sentence :
“Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.”
Is this OK for you?
Like these laws for foreigners living in Germany?“Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.”
Is this OK for you?
https://www.sachsen.de/en/1454.htm
It’s from a NASDP manifesto in the 1920s.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I mean policies that have ugly overtones.
It isn't "swinging people from lamp posts" or "brown shirts dragging people from houses" but it all starts somewhere, and along the way people will make excuses for it or turn a blind eye.
I think people would be less forgiving if it was a Labour manifesto and they had pages and policies dedicated to singling out Jews.
It all starts somewhere? It isn't "swinging people from lamp posts" or "brown shirts dragging people from houses" but it all starts somewhere, and along the way people will make excuses for it or turn a blind eye.
I think people would be less forgiving if it was a Labour manifesto and they had pages and policies dedicated to singling out Jews.
What exactly starts somewhere?
Many people have concerns when it comes to Islam, there are many areas of Islamic belief that I don't think work with our western values and liberalism....not yet anyway. That may change in years to come of course. But devout Muslims coming from Somalia, Iraq and Syria suddenly be open to true equality? I doubt it.
What we will probably see is those that grow up in places like the UK becoming the voice of the Muslim people, they will get more of a voice and with that shot down the extreme views we see in some of the Islamic nations around the globe.
I don't like Islam, but that doesn't mean I don't like Muslims, my best mate who has been my best mate since we were at school is a Muslim.
But it is the same way I don't like devout Christians, Catholics especially are a proper nasty bunch.
It is OK to criticise Islam, it is OK to talk about concerns, it is also OK to say if you move to a country you have to respect those whose country it is.
Would you go to Iraq and not respect their ways?
While people just shout racist all the while we are creating this frustration, and until we speak openly with each other we will never move forward.
Jews vs Muslims?
The fear of Islam is the belief Islam wants to be the only religion.
We have seen mainly Christian Middle East become mainly Muslim, and people are concerned that this will happen across the EU and the globe.
The fear of the Jews is based on the fact that many think the Jews have the whole world on a string like puppets controlling the banks, the media and everything that controls our lives. They are the capitalist elite and must be brought down.
The reality is that the globe will probably become an Islamic land, but it will happen so slowly that no one really notices or cares.
And I'm sure the large Jewish families probably do control so much of how our lives are lived out, but does that really matter, if anything changed would it be for the better?
People are genuinely scared about where they see the future. You can't dismiss those fears be calling then racist. You have to answer those fears.
sunbeam alpine said:
powerstroke said:
CaptainSlow said:
Earthdweller said:
Reports in various press this morning of a number of EU countries reaching out to Boris independently of Brussels to avoid a no deal
Meanwhile Merkel has said that the draft agreement could be rewritten to effectively remove the backstop
The word is compromise apparently and some countries notably Germany Belgium France and Ireland will do what’s necessary to avoid a “no deal” Brexit
Maybe .. having someone who wants to leave is what needed after all
Quite, seems Ireland is now publicly admitting a no-deal scenario would turn the whole island into an economic wasteland. I wonder if they're getting concerned about where the next bail out is coming from. Meanwhile Merkel has said that the draft agreement could be rewritten to effectively remove the backstop
The word is compromise apparently and some countries notably Germany Belgium France and Ireland will do what’s necessary to avoid a “no deal” Brexit
Maybe .. having someone who wants to leave is what needed after all
Looks like business will be leading the politicians from now on ....Result .....
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/varadkars-back...
Perhaps finally the reality of the matter is becoming evident and the political game playing will give way.
All the Irish have been doing is saying that if the st hits the fan it's the Brits' fault and the Brits' problem, because they thought the E. U had their backs. Well, guess what, this backstop thing and Irish-British border anxiety was a trick by the E. U to thwart the British, one way or another. The will has always been there, on this side, to keep the border open and fluid, in terms of trade, security and logistics.
The Irish have been played as a pawn in the E. U's power games. Hopefully they'll now see what we see.
Perhaps finally the reality of the matter is becoming evident and the political game playing will give way.
All the Irish have been doing is saying that if the s
t hits the fan it's the Brits' fault and the Brits' problem, because they thought the E. U had their backs. Well, guess what, this backstop thing and Irish-British border anxiety was a trick by the E. U to thwart the British, one way or another. The will has always been there, on this side, to keep the border open and fluid, in terms of trade, security and logistics.The Irish have been played as a pawn in the E. U's power games. Hopefully they'll now see what we see.
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