How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
tumble dryer said:
There are those who frequent this thread that deserve a pack-attack (forgive me, but that's what this looks like), as they gleefully participate in tit for tat.
I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
Thank you.I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
That’s much appreciated.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Apologies, you're absolutely right there, you didn't say that. I'm sorry.
I don't think you need to read it all any more than you need to read everything Trump has ever written (god help anyone who tries) to realise he's a nasty piece of work.
As I said, there will be policies in there that are quite sensible and that I'd agree with. There usually are alongside the grubby bits as it's the sensible bits that makes people bend a little and go along with the grubby bits, especially when they don't effect them.
i don't think there has been a time since i was born that it has been more important to read all political parties/organisations literature. it can be hard work but as i said at the moment detail is important.I don't think you need to read it all any more than you need to read everything Trump has ever written (god help anyone who tries) to realise he's a nasty piece of work.
As I said, there will be policies in there that are quite sensible and that I'd agree with. There usually are alongside the grubby bits as it's the sensible bits that makes people bend a little and go along with the grubby bits, especially when they don't effect them.
i am now up to page 56 and there are a few things i take issue with (you should have read it, way before the section on islam they take appear to take the jrm view toward abortion, though for different reasons ) but on the section you reference, 7.6 onward, the only problem i have is with their stance on religious clothing worn by women. people should be free to wear what they like when they like in public as long as no dangly or wrinkly bits hang out , imo.
the bit in bold below i have issues with, the subsequent non bolded part i don't. so just like every uk political party they have policy i agree with and disagree with.
Islam does not belong to Germany. Itsexpansionandthe
everincreasingnumberofMuslimsinthecountryare
viewedbytheAfDasadangertoourstate, oursociety, andourvalues An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
from being in conflict with our legal system, or that even
lays claim to power as the only true religion, is incompatible
with our legal system and our culture. Many Muslims live
as law-abiding and well-integrated citizens amongst us, and
are accepted and valued members of our society. However,
the AfD demands that an end is put to the formation and
increased segregation by parallel Islamic societies relying
on courts with shari’a laws. The AfD wishes to curb a trend
towards religious radicalisation amongst Muslims, and these
turning into violent Salafists or terrorists.
Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:44
Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:54
apologies for the joined up paragraph of letters, if anyone knows who is responsible for the formatting on here could you give me their home address, i will give them a good shoeing then make them come back and reformat it to actually work properly
the most basic forums these days have a function where a one click highlight then one click on "bold" actually works. i know it is probably down to the spacing in the copied part of the document,but ffs it really isn't hard to get right.Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:59
DeepEnd said:
The point I was making is that don’t expect dangerous political movements to advertise their ugliness in plain sight. They’ll dress it up and try and make it look reasonable.
I quoted part of the Nazi manifesto from 1920s - in doing so highlighting its similarity to AfD statements - the bit I quoted turned into something very oppressive and evil, to put it mildly.
Gilbertron’s instinct faced with the text - out of context I’ll admit - was to say “what’s wrong with that, just like this (and then quoted a link)”. He did not recognise it as part of the Nazi manifesto.
It is unfair to single out Gilbertron as I’m sure if he’d known he would not have defended it - even though it is quite an unpleasant pledge in itself and should have raised some eyebrows at least.
all we have to go on when making choices at the ballot box are manifestos. that is why i am in favour of making them legally binding with the ability to change only due to exceptional or extenuating circumstance.I quoted part of the Nazi manifesto from 1920s - in doing so highlighting its similarity to AfD statements - the bit I quoted turned into something very oppressive and evil, to put it mildly.
Gilbertron’s instinct faced with the text - out of context I’ll admit - was to say “what’s wrong with that, just like this (and then quoted a link)”. He did not recognise it as part of the Nazi manifesto.
It is unfair to single out Gilbertron as I’m sure if he’d known he would not have defended it - even though it is quite an unpleasant pledge in itself and should have raised some eyebrows at least.
if a political party say one thing that then turns out to be something else all together ,all we can do is vote them out at the next opportunity. you have formed an opinion and taken a guess at what the afd really mean in their manifesto,plenty others will take it at face value until shown otherwise.
i have to say having read to page 56 they have written a very interesting manifesto, the part on eu financial matters and the euro is worth a read. one i could support with very few changes , though the bits i would see changed would prevent me voting for them.for instance i am not keen on national service in the form they appear to want to introduce, though some form of short term civic service might be a good idea. their view on abortion is another i don't support.
tumble dryer said:
There are those who frequent this thread that deserve a pack-attack (forgive me, but that's what this looks like), as they gleefully participate in tit for tat.
I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
Sorry, never heard of you.I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
DeepEnd said:
Re tariffs and leverage.
Reducing tariffs under no deal branded “cack handed” as Canada says no point in rolling over CETA then........
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
This is literally the point being made about tariffs and leverage in action. And it proves those who think leverage is not important as just wrong, and dispels the quotas olive branch as non-weight bearing.
That is hilarious. Comedy gold from the Independent.Reducing tariffs under no deal branded “cack handed” as Canada says no point in rolling over CETA then........
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
This is literally the point being made about tariffs and leverage in action. And it proves those who think leverage is not important as just wrong, and dispels the quotas olive branch as non-weight bearing.
Independent said:
A study for the government found that losing the Ceta deal would deliver an £800m blow to GDP by 2030
Do you know how much the Candians sold to us in a single year, 2017? $13.6 billion worth of goods.Let's be conservative and say applying the EU third party tariff schedule on leaving would account for, say 5% of that. That would cost us $680 million a year - compared to the government study suggesting the cost of losing the Ceta deal would be £800m over ten years.
So you're seriously suggesting that in order to save around £80million a year, we should apply tariffs of $680million a year? (CBA to convert currencies, I think even you can tell the difference between £80million and $680million).
In our original discussion, I said that the benefit of tariffs outweighed the perceived benefit of leverage. And it appears you've posted an article that actually puts figures to that claim - in this case, tariffs are nearly a whole order of magnitude more important than leverage. Thank you for making my case.
In fairness to Percy, he had one job - to roll over CETA, and the No Deal tariff schedule looks like it has made his job difficult. That would be something to be deeply upset about, and to resign over. Good for him for sticking to his principles. I'm glad you also think his opinion is one worth listening to. Earlier this year he made a speech about Remainers trying to block Brexit. He also voted twice for keeping No Deal on the table. Seems like a principled guy, don't you think?
Edited by Tuna on Sunday 21st July 22:36
digimeistter said:
tumble dryer said:
There are those who frequent this thread that deserve a pack-attack (forgive me, but that's what this looks like), as they gleefully participate in tit for tat.
I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
Sorry, never heard of you.I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
That's not rhetorical btw, I'd like an answer please.
wc98 said:
all we have to go on when making choices at the ballot box are manifestos. that is why i am in favour of making them legally binding with the ability to change only due to exceptional or extenuating circumstance.
if a political party say one thing that then turns out to be something else all together ,all we can do is vote them out at the next opportunity. you have formed an opinion and taken a guess at what the afd really mean in their manifesto,plenty others will take it at face value until shown otherwise.
i have to say having read to page 56 they have written a very interesting manifesto, the part on eu financial matters and the euro is worth a read. one i could support with very few changes , though the bits i would see changed would prevent me voting for them.for instance i am not keen on national service in the form they appear to want to introduce, though some form of short term civic service might be a good idea. their view on abortion is another i don't support.
Ultimately AfD are pushing an anti-Islam message which does foster hatred and division - no question. It is ugly. If you read the 1920 nazi manifesto it does just the same about Jews. If you substituted Islam for Jews in the AfD manifesto, how would you feel about that?if a political party say one thing that then turns out to be something else all together ,all we can do is vote them out at the next opportunity. you have formed an opinion and taken a guess at what the afd really mean in their manifesto,plenty others will take it at face value until shown otherwise.
i have to say having read to page 56 they have written a very interesting manifesto, the part on eu financial matters and the euro is worth a read. one i could support with very few changes , though the bits i would see changed would prevent me voting for them.for instance i am not keen on national service in the form they appear to want to introduce, though some form of short term civic service might be a good idea. their view on abortion is another i don't support.
A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
tumble dryer said:
digimeistter said:
tumble dryer said:
There are those who frequent this thread that deserve a pack-attack (forgive me, but that's what this looks like), as they gleefully participate in tit for tat.
I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
Sorry, never heard of you.I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
That's not rhetorical btw, I'd like an answer please.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
digimeistter said:
tumble dryer said:
digimeistter said:
tumble dryer said:
There are those who frequent this thread that deserve a pack-attack (forgive me, but that's what this looks like), as they gleefully participate in tit for tat.
I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
Sorry, never heard of you.I don't see B10 as one of those. I think his profession leaves him well-placed to make the calls he has made.
The thing is, like it or not, I think we're all (that's everyone within the spider's web); on a downwards economic trajectory beyond the brouhaha.
He speaks the truth, and I'm still a confirmed leaver.
That's not rhetorical btw, I'd like an answer please.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
You doubt my sincerity? Authenticity as a 5+ years poster? Or my opinion?
Behave yourself. 14 years doesn't make you god, just someone else with an opinion.
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
I have been a member for 14 years, I've never seen a single post by Tumble Dryer.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
Well I had never had the pleasure of your genius before today Chief nor you mine Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
PH is an ever bigger place.
digimeistter said:
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
I have been a member for 14 years, I've never seen a single post by Tumble Dryer.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
Well I had never had the pleasure of your genius before today Chief nor you mine Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
PH is an ever bigger place.
DeepEnd said:
Ultimately AfD are pushing an anti-Islam message which does foster hatred and division - no question. It is ugly. If you read the 1920 nazi manifesto it does just the same about Jews. If you substituted Islam for Jews in the AfD manifesto, how would you feel about that?
A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
what do you think promoting the view there is only one god and one religion is promoting ? are you pro islam to the letter, pro islam for some of its teachings but not others ? or happy to accept people practicing any form of religion they like as long as they cause no harm to others and adhere to the laws of the country they live ?A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
DeepEnd said:
Ultimately AfD are pushing an anti-Islam message which does foster hatred and division - no question. It is ugly. If you read the 1920 nazi manifesto it does just the same about Jews. If you substituted Islam for Jews in the AfD manifesto, how would you feel about that?
A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
I don't remember a single post of yours that I have agreed with but on this you are correct. A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
I feel it is the result of multiculturalism as better intergration was never pursued, the same can be said for most western countries with large Muslim areas.
How the afd have got such a large following though is beyond me.
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
I have been a member for 14 years, I've never seen a single post by Tumble Dryer.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
Well I had never had the pleasure of your genius before today Chief nor you mine Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
PH is an ever bigger place.
digimeistter said:
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
Brooking10 said:
digimeistter said:
I have been a member for 14 years, I've never seen a single post by Tumble Dryer.
Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
Well I had never had the pleasure of your genius before today Chief nor you mine Interesting you haven't started a single thread ever?
PH is an ever bigger place.
You’ve been suitably personal over this exchange though that you’ve now made one in return.
wc98 said:
apologies for the joined up paragraph of letters, if anyone knows who is responsible for the formatting on here could you give me their home address, i will give them a good shoeing then make them come back and reformat it to actually work properly the most basic forums these days have a function where a one click highlight then one click on "bold" actually works. i know it is probably down to the spacing in the copied part of the document,but ffs it really isn't hard to get right.
That'd be the user writing the post the most basic forums these days have a function where a one click highlight then one click on "bold" actually works. i know it is probably down to the spacing in the copied part of the document,but ffs it really isn't hard to get right.wc98 said:
Islam does not belong to Germany. [b]Its[/b] [b]expansion[/b] [b]and[/b] [b]the[/b]
[b]ever[/b] [b]increasing[/b] [b]number[/b] [b]of[/b] [b]Muslims[/b] [b]in[/b] [b]the[/b] [b]country[/b] [b]are[/b]
[b]viewed[/b] [b]by[/b] [b]the[/b] [b]AfD[/b] [b]as[/b] [b]a[/b] [b]danger[/b] [b]to[/b] [b]our[/b] [b]state[/b], [b]our[/b] [b]society[/b], [b]and[/b] [b]our[/b] [b]values[/b] An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
-----------------
Here's where it went wrong. You wrap the bold tags around the section, not the original words. If the section crosses multiple lines, you need to wrap the bold tags around each line. Like this:
-----------------
Islam does not belong to Germany. [b]Its expansion and the[/b]
[b]ever increasing number of Muslims in the country are[/b]
[b]viewed by the AfD as a danger to our state, our society, and our values[/b] An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
wc98 said:
Islam does not belong to Germany. Its expansion and the
ever increasing number of Muslims in the country are
viewed by the AfD as a danger to our state, our society, and our values An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
ever increasing number of Muslims in the country are
viewed by the AfD as a danger to our state, our society, and our values An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
DeepEnd said:
Ultimately AfD are pushing an anti-Islam message which does foster hatred and division - no question. It is ugly. If you read the 1920 nazi manifesto it does just the same about Jews. If you substituted Islam for Jews in the AfD manifesto, how would you feel about that?
A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
AfD are not pushing an anti-Islam message per se but are clearly pushing an anti sharia law agenda as being contrary to the extant laws of Germany. I think most people here would be uncomfortable with sharia law taking hold in their society.A state stigmatising a minority is never a good thing, surprised this is not more obviously considered “a bad thing”.
Nigel going to talk at their rally is really not a good thing at all.
They are also against full face covering dress, as per the French, and it is a moot point, regardless of religion, as to whether society should accept people wandering around with their faces fully/mostly covered. Personally I would not interact with anyone who covers their face whether it be a religious dress or, say, a balaclava. I would be very uncomfortable if this became an accepted norm in our society.
As for the 1920 Nazi manifesto saying the same about Jews this is clearly not the case. Point 4 alone of the Nazi manifesto goes way beyond anything the AfD are proposing.
wc98 said:
i don't think there has been a time since i was born that it has been more important to read all political parties/organisations literature. it can be hard work but as i said at the moment detail is important.
i am now up to page 56 and there are a few things i take issue with (you should have read it, way before the section on islam they take appear to take the jrm view toward abortion, though for different reasons ) but on the section you reference, 7.6 onward, the only problem i have is with their stance on religious clothing worn by women. people should be free to wear what they like when they like in public as long as no dangly or wrinkly bits hang out , imo.
the bit in bold below i have issues with, the subsequent non bolded part i don't. so just like every uk political party they have policy i agree with and disagree with.
Islam does not belong to Germany. Itsexpansionandthe
everincreasingnumberofMuslimsinthecountryare
viewedbytheAfDasadangertoourstate, oursociety, andourvalues An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
from being in conflict with our legal system, or that even
lays claim to power as the only true religion, is incompatible
with our legal system and our culture. Many Muslims live
as law-abiding and well-integrated citizens amongst us, and
are accepted and valued members of our society. However,
the AfD demands that an end is put to the formation and
increased segregation by parallel Islamic societies relying
on courts with shari’a laws. The AfD wishes to curb a trend
towards religious radicalisation amongst Muslims, and these
turning into violent Salafists or terrorists.
apologies for the joined up paragraph of letters, if anyone knows who is responsible for the formatting on here could you give me their home address, i will give them a good shoeing then make them come back and reformat it to actually work properly the most basic forums these days have a function where a one click highlight then one click on "bold" actually works. i know it is probably down to the spacing in the copied part of the document,but ffs it really isn't hard to get right.
I agree there will be bits I agree with and bits I don't.i am now up to page 56 and there are a few things i take issue with (you should have read it, way before the section on islam they take appear to take the jrm view toward abortion, though for different reasons ) but on the section you reference, 7.6 onward, the only problem i have is with their stance on religious clothing worn by women. people should be free to wear what they like when they like in public as long as no dangly or wrinkly bits hang out , imo.
the bit in bold below i have issues with, the subsequent non bolded part i don't. so just like every uk political party they have policy i agree with and disagree with.
Islam does not belong to Germany. Itsexpansionandthe
everincreasingnumberofMuslimsinthecountryare
viewedbytheAfDasadangertoourstate, oursociety, andourvalues An Islam which neither respects nor refrains
from being in conflict with our legal system, or that even
lays claim to power as the only true religion, is incompatible
with our legal system and our culture. Many Muslims live
as law-abiding and well-integrated citizens amongst us, and
are accepted and valued members of our society. However,
the AfD demands that an end is put to the formation and
increased segregation by parallel Islamic societies relying
on courts with shari’a laws. The AfD wishes to curb a trend
towards religious radicalisation amongst Muslims, and these
turning into violent Salafists or terrorists.
Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:44
Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:54
apologies for the joined up paragraph of letters, if anyone knows who is responsible for the formatting on here could you give me their home address, i will give them a good shoeing then make them come back and reformat it to actually work properly
the most basic forums these days have a function where a one click highlight then one click on "bold" actually works. i know it is probably down to the spacing in the copied part of the document,but ffs it really isn't hard to get right.Edited by wc98 on Sunday 21st July 22:59
I think the question is how much would you tolerate to get what you want.
For example if a party stood on that manifesto in the UK and they were the only party offering Brexit, would you vote for them knowing that's their policy?
At the risk of sounding repetitive if Labour pulled that stunt with a specific "Ways we'll treat Jews differently" section of their manifesto they'd be utterly lambasted and rightly so.
Again, we don't have the AfD here, we had and have UKIP and we have Farage who seems happy to stand on a platform with these people.
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