How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[toppstuff]

jsf said:

You don't get it do you.

The EU is not a static organisation, it is an anti-democratic construct which is reducing the democratic control the people of Europe have over their ruling classes.

You have to be completely blinkered to not see whats going on right now, with the rise of the Anti-EU parties across Europe whilst the gravy train riders carve up the power.

They just took the piss again yesterday, proposing a convicted financial criminal as head of the ECB and a rabid federalist German as head of the commision.

Politics in Europe are going to get very messy when the next recession hits.

OMG that is just a badly reheated list of Farage-isms. Not an independent thought in there.

When you apparently think you live in a dictatorship ( a ignorant statement and an insult to the poor billions of people who really do ) all you do is show how, in a perfect world, people should be made to take a general knowledge test before being given the ability to vote.

[toppstuff]

Robertj21a said:

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

[crankedup]

Robertj21a said:

toppstuff said:

jsf said:

You are one of these strange people who thinks living in a dictatorship is a jolly wheeze.

And you have just shown you have absolutely ZERO idea what a dictatorship is. I will give you a clue - the fact that you have the freedom to be online and talk such drivel is one indication. You are free to talk bks in public too - thats another. You can vote for what you want - thats another clue... you can also live where you want and do what you want. You can read what you want and go where you want. You are free to offer your ill informed opinions..

So where is this dictatorship exactly?? How does this compare to North Korea or China. You know, those dictatorships..

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

Simple, direct and very true I would imagine for millions of others in the referendum.

[amusingduck]

toppstuff said:

Robertj21a said:

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

Oh it's this game again.

1. Someone names something
2. The goalposts are moved to That's what you're bothered about? roflolzlzolzolzol

[toppstuff]

crankedup said:

Simple, direct and very true I would imagine for millions of others in the referendum.

I will ask the same question of you cranked.

Give me one example of something you cannot do right now that you want to, because of the EU.

[psi310398]

toppstuff said:

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

How about the ability to buy cheap food from anywhere in the world without paying extortionate taxes on it?

[andymadmak]

toppstuff said:

And you have just shown you have absolutely ZERO idea what a dictatorship is. I will give you a clue - the fact that you have the freedom to be online and talk such drivel is one indication.

Are you sure you can post any drivel on line? Without any risk of state sanction? Google might re-educate you on this

toppstuff said:

You are free to talk bks in public too - thats another.

Are you sure you are free to talk bks in public too? Try Google again..

toppstuff said:

You can vote for what you want - thats another clue...

Yes, but don't expect what you voted for to be enacted - even if you were part of the winning majority....

toppstuff said:

you can also live where you want and do what you want.

not much different to China then on the living part. The doing what you want bit? Try google again...

toppstuff said:

You can read what you want and go where you want.

You do know that there are limits on these things don't you? The fact that you personally don't approach those limits does not mean that they don't exist, or that they are not as restricting as some dictatorships.

toppstuff said:

You are free to offer your ill informed opinions..

as you so ably demonstrate.

toppstuff said:

So where is this dictatorship exactly?? How does this compare to North Korea or China. You know, those dictatorships..

Ever been to China? I have. Lots of times. When you're there, it feels no different to here from a personal freedom POV. It's all about touching those limits...

toppstuff said:

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Not be harangued by or suffer the faux outrage of ardent Remainers when I refuse to stand up for 'Ode to Joy'?

[Adenauer]

Didn't take long for this thread to be spoilt by playground antics again then.

[chrispmartha]

andymadmak said:

toppstuff said:

And you have just shown you have absolutely ZERO idea what a dictatorship is. I will give you a clue - the fact that you have the freedom to be online and talk such drivel is one indication.

Are you sure you can post any drivel on line? Without any risk of state sanction? Google might re-educate you on this

toppstuff said:

You are free to talk bks in public too - thats another.

Are you sure you are free to talk bks in public too? Try Google again..

toppstuff said:

You can vote for what you want - thats another clue...

Yes, but don't expect what you voted for to be enacted - even if you were part of the winning majority....

toppstuff said:

you can also live where you want and do what you want.

not much different to China then on the living part. The doing what you want bit? Try google again...

toppstuff said:

You can read what you want and go where you want.

You do know that there are limits on these things don't you? The fact that you personally don't approach those limits does not mean that they don't exist, or that they are not as restricting as some dictatorships.

toppstuff said:

You are free to offer your ill informed opinions..

as you so ably demonstrate.

toppstuff said:

So where is this dictatorship exactly?? How does this compare to North Korea or China. You know, those dictatorships..

Ever been to China? I have. Lots of times. When you're there, it feels no different to here from a personal freedom POV. It's all about touching those limits...

toppstuff said:

When we leave the EU - name ONE thing you can do that you cannot do already. One thing.. Go on.

Not be harangued by or suffer the faux outrage of ardent Remainers when I refuse to stand up for 'Ode to Joy'?

And how’s any of that going to be different outside of the EU?

Also Google in China is blocked isn’t it?

Edited by chrispmartha on Wednesday 3rd July 11:32

[Codotuk]

toppstuff said:

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

As far as I’m aware Dvla introduced the mod 1 section of the motorcycle test due to having to test candidates at speeds measured in kph which equalled 31mph to conform to an eu directive.

And they changed the rules on what bikes you can do the test on.

So dvla had to spend millions on the test centres and in rural areas they don’t have any so you have to travel.

The test takes 12 minutes! And there are so many ways to fail it’s ridiculous.

[dangerousB]

toppstuff said:

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

Import a boat from outside of the EU and use it as it was intended without first going through very expensive RCD compliance.

That involves obtaining a Declaration of Conformity or Post Construction Certificate and is not cheap. Apparently, just because it was made in the States (or elsewhere) where it is perfectly safe to use, putting it on a RoRo ferry, shipping it across the Atlantic makes that questionable.

Regardless of it's stated intentions, it has absolutely nothing to do with safety - it was introduced by the EU and is a protectionist measure brought about as a result of French boat builders lobbying the Commission.

[andymadmak]

chrispmartha said:

And how’s any of that going to be different outside of the EU?

Also Google in China is blocked isn’t it?

Edited by chrispmartha on Wednesday 3rd July 11:32

That's not the point I was making. TS was frothing about definitions of dictatorships, and used a series of examples that were supposed to suggest how much better off we were compared to China. (and others). I simply wanted to point out that things were perhaps not as black and white as he suggested. Don't get me wrong, I think our civil liberties are stronger in the UK than they are in China (am I actually allowed to say that or will I now be accused of racism? - see yesterdays attacks on Tuna) but equally the whole 'we can go anywhere, say anything, do anything, write anything' mantra does not really apply to the UK either.

[toppstuff]

psi310398 said:

How about the ability to buy cheap food from anywhere in the world without paying extortionate taxes on it?

Thats a nice headline. How does that work then?

What about tarriffs ? Do you know the likely tariff under WTO for different food stuffs?

What about our own farmers? What happens to them?

[Garvin]

I am now ensconced in the lounge at LHR T5 awaiting my delayed flight to Munich - a delay that must surely be the fault of the EU, or Brexit, or both! However, I now have time to compose an elitist, supercilious post about the ills of allowing the thick proletariat to vote on anything meaningful as well as pour bile on anyone with a different view to mine by drumming up a racist*/thick*/great unwashed* slur on those who dare to counter my erudite views and eloquently constructed posts.

In the meantime, has anyone any idea how Boris, for surely it will be he who will be elected tribe chief and PM by the blue rinse brigade, is actually going to achieve Brexit? I, for one, just can’t fathom the plan . . . . . . . or is that because there isn’t one!

*Delete as applicable

[Robertj21a]

toppstuff said:

Robertj21a said:

Live my life under British law without unwanted interference from the EU.

That is a meaningless statement. Farage-fluff.

Give me an example of something you cannot do right now because we are in the EU. If you cant, then you can be ignored

No wonder you get so frustrated.

What is it that you cannot understand when people use plain English ?

You appear to live in a bubble where you only understand waffle from foreigners (who you've briefed!), any supposed 'expert' and/or views that suit your own rather strange, and biased, point of view.

Thank goodness we'll be rid of the EU, and all these silly comments, before long.

[psi310398]

toppstuff said:

Thats a nice headline. How does that work then?

What about tarriffs ? Do you know the likely tariff under WTO for different food stuffs?

What about our own farmers? What happens to them?

You asked a question. You got an answer.

It will be up to the UK if we apply tariffs - that is a sign of freedom.

The answers to your follow up questions will be considerations of the consequences of whether or if we set tariffs.

[chrispmartha]

andymadmak said:

chrispmartha said:

And how’s any of that going to be different outside of the EU?

Also Google in China is blocked isn’t it?

Edited by chrispmartha on Wednesday 3rd July 11:32

That's not the point I was making. TS was frothing about definitions of dictatorships, and used a series of examples that were supposed to suggest how much better off we were compared to China. (and others). I simply wanted to point out that things were perhaps not as black and white as he suggested. Don't get me wrong, I think our civil liberties are stronger in the UK than they are in China (am I actually allowed to say that or will I now be accused of racism? - see yesterdays attacks on Tuna) but equally the whole 'we can go anywhere, say anything, do anything, write anything' mantra does not really apply to the UK either.

TS was replying to someone who was implying being in the EU is living in a dictatorship, if anyone seriously thinks that they’ve got a skewed sense of reality.

[andymadmak]

Garvin said:

I am now ensconced in the lounge at LHR T5 awaiting my delayed flight to Munich - a delay that must surely be the fault of the EU, or Brexit, or both! However, I now have time to compose an elitist, supercilious post about the ills of allowing the thick proletariat to vote on anything meaningful as well as pour bile on anyone with a different view to mine by drumming up a racist*/thick*/great unwashed* slur on those who dare to counter my erudite views and eloquently constructed posts.

In the meantime, has anyone any idea how Boris, for surely it will be he who will be elected tribe chief and PM by the blue rinse brigade, is actually going to achieve Brexit? I, for one, just can’t fathom the plan . . . . . . . or is that because there isn’t one!

*Delete as applicable

I said at the very beginning of the Tory Leadership race that it would come down to Hunt Vs Johnson. Hunt may yet just sneak the victory imho, so your question should apply to both.
My answer then is this:

Hunt will not deliver Brexit because he is a Remainer. His tough talk will be nothing more than that and he will dissolve into May style compromises that will serve no purpose other than to ensure a Corbyn victory in the next GE.

Johnson may or may not have a plan. If I were Johnson I would now push for a WTO Brexit on 31st October. I say that because any other Brexit can only come about if the EU is also willing to reopen negotiations. If (and it's a big if) there is going to be ANY sensible movement from the EU in that direction it will only come if they believe that the UK PM is prepared to walk away at the end of October, no matter what. Any sign of weakness from Boris will be the justification for the EU to remain as resolute and unbending in their approach to the negotiations as they have been for the past 3 years.
Do I like that we are a few months away from what I think was an entirely avoidable crunch? No. But to break the impasse requires strength and courage, and a clear willingness to follow through on commitments. It takes two sides to negotiate, and from where I am sitting it's the EU that sees no compelling reason for it to have to get around the table and talk sensibly. Give them that reason and we might get some progress.

[andymadmak]

chrispmartha said:

andymadmak said:

chrispmartha said:

And how’s any of that going to be different outside of the EU?

Also Google in China is blocked isn’t it?

Edited by chrispmartha on Wednesday 3rd July 11:32

That's not the point I was making. TS was frothing about definitions of dictatorships, and used a series of examples that were supposed to suggest how much better off we were compared to China. (and others). I simply wanted to point out that things were perhaps not as black and white as he suggested. Don't get me wrong, I think our civil liberties are stronger in the UK than they are in China (am I actually allowed to say that or will I now be accused of racism? - see yesterdays attacks on Tuna) but equally the whole 'we can go anywhere, say anything, do anything, write anything' mantra does not really apply to the UK either.

TS was replying to someone who was implying being in the EU is living in a dictatorship, if anyone seriously thinks that they’ve got a skewed sense of reality.

That's true. But the lines between forms of dictatorship are a bit blurred, and are not necessarily defined by the points that TS used.
I do agree that the EU is not quite a dictatorship. But it's closer than the UK, and it's heading in some questionable directions... Who knows what will be off our southern coast in 20 years time?

[Gilbertron]

F1GTRUeno said:

Nobody tired of this yet?

You got what you wanted. To feel significant in your tiny lives for a moment and I'm sure the 'victory' of 2016 felt amazing for you but the crushing reality is that you don't really matter as evidenced by the farce that has been the last three years.

At this point Brexit doesn't really matter at all to anyone, it's just lost in the noise around it. You got your voices heard, you were never going to get them acted upon, surely you've gotta realise that by now. No matter if we leave or stay it won't be what you actually wanted but you've made a whole bunch of people miserable in the process throughout this country and abroad and Britain is a joke.

All the talk of living in a dictatorship seems to have stemmed from and, initially, been a reply to this.