How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
C4ME said:
It is all phoney war stuff at the moment. The EU like the deal that has been negotiated, their PR message over their position is working well in euroland, and they think there is a possibility parliament will stop no deal. They have no reason to budge. In the UK the Tories will not bring the existing deal back to parliament as is and Boris thinks he can get no deal over the line. He believes his PR messages of "intransient EU" and "we can make a success of no deal" is starting to work in the UK. He has no reason to budge.
Shame we can't fast forward to mid October when we will actually find out if there is a deal to be done. I am tempted to switch off the news till then.
its a disgrace there are so many eu collaborators in this country trying to undermine what hes doingShame we can't fast forward to mid October when we will actually find out if there is a deal to be done. I am tempted to switch off the news till then.
Edited by C4ME on Wednesday 21st August 11:34
Digga said:
Serious question; most remainers got this wrong first time around. I think it fair to say the leave vote was as shock for many. It was a particular shock to those who hoped and assumed they had their finger on the pulse of the nation.
What makes you certain you are better informed, or more closely aligned to reality this time?
I've claimed nothing other than 'we don't know'. What makes you certain you are better informed, or more closely aligned to reality this time?
Personally, I always thought it would be close. And after 40 odd years of the biggest newspapers in the country constantly spreading anti-EU scare stories, plus Nigel Farage getting a platform on QT at least once a month in the build-up, I'm amazed Leave didn't do rather better.
Pan Pan Pan said:
There was no democratic process when the UK was slimed into the EU by the government, without giving the people of the UK a vote on whether or not they wanted the UK to be a member of the EU.
I see the record with a scratch is back. You had your chance in 1975, so do pipe down with this endlessly repeated canard.NoNeed said:
I know of at least 3 remain viters who would now vote leave, I know of no leave voters that would now vote remain, I can only go on my personal experience which is nothing like Elysium describes in his deliberately inflammatory post
Indeed, its amazing how quickly the results of the European elections have been forgotten. How exactly did that go for the Remainers?
500swk said:
the collaborators seem to think they are
Appreciate you're making a strong point and all, but using the word 'collaborators' to refer to people in a peacetime democracy, supportive of a pan European rules based organisation we're members of, does make you look a bit of a bulb. banjowilly said:
Appreciate you're making a strong point and all, but using the word 'collaborators' to refer to people in a highly corrupt, anti democratic, peacetime (but wants an army) democracy (who ignore referendum results when it suits them and plows on regardless), supportive of a pan European rules based organisation (except when they want to ignore the rules) we're members of, does make you look a bit of a bulb.
Fixed that for you. If you are going to describe the EU - might as well get the details right.
Engelberger said:
Well that is what they are SAYING is happening. The reality is very different based on my contacts. Perhaps you have some firm evidence?
What the lunatics don't seem to grasp is that they are digging their own grave. It is so obvious and yet they still bleat the lines.
Take for example the idiot above bleating about VAT and Corp Tax rates. He has a point, we are currently restricted. However, he fails to realise that we haven't even taken the options we have to make changes and have never had any logical reason to go outside of the boundaries we and the other EU member states agreed to.
If you have any intellectual honesty the first thing you would consider is what circumstances you would have to fall outside of the boundaries currently in place? The instant reaction of the idiots is "giving the finger" to our largest trading partner. How do you think that would work out? Others will consider the economic impact in revenue. They will understand that economically we would be in serious straits to rely on this lever of economics. They would understand that VAT rates for example need to be sustained and take time to filter through to the economy.
But no, you keep pressing on towards the cliff.
Most amusing. Why rational people are indulging some of you I just don't understand. Anyone taking even a slice of what politicians say is a fool who will end up being dissapointed.
Quick tip - you want to engage in a debate, how about you stop throwing about words like "the idiot". What the lunatics don't seem to grasp is that they are digging their own grave. It is so obvious and yet they still bleat the lines.
Take for example the idiot above bleating about VAT and Corp Tax rates. He has a point, we are currently restricted. However, he fails to realise that we haven't even taken the options we have to make changes and have never had any logical reason to go outside of the boundaries we and the other EU member states agreed to.
If you have any intellectual honesty the first thing you would consider is what circumstances you would have to fall outside of the boundaries currently in place? The instant reaction of the idiots is "giving the finger" to our largest trading partner. How do you think that would work out? Others will consider the economic impact in revenue. They will understand that economically we would be in serious straits to rely on this lever of economics. They would understand that VAT rates for example need to be sustained and take time to filter through to the economy.
But no, you keep pressing on towards the cliff.
Most amusing. Why rational people are indulging some of you I just don't understand. Anyone taking even a slice of what politicians say is a fool who will end up being dissapointed.
All I got as a response to your essay was "f
k you" - especially when you didn't even pick up on the context that the benefits of having full control is not in our current economic environment, but one where systemic contagion from the Eurozone was hitting the globe... Troubleatmill said:
banjowilly said:
Appreciate you're making a strong point and all, but using the word 'collaborators' to refer to people in a highly corrupt, anti democratic, peacetime (but wants an army) democracy (who ignore referendum results when it suits them and plows on regardless), supportive of a pan European rules based organisation (except when they want to ignore the rules) we're members of, does make you look a bit of a bulb.
Fixed that for you. If you are going to describe the EU - might as well get the details right.
banjowilly said:
I see the record with a scratch is back. You had your chance in 1975, so do pipe down with this endlessly repeated canard.
That's the trouble with remainers they shy away from the truth, like a vampire shies away from sunlight. Consequently when the truth is presented to them, they want to sweep it under the carpet as quickly as possible. Remainers are extremely upset. and frightened by the truth.Still, what can one expect from those who practice a highly selective version of democracy, where when a vote goes the way they want it to they accept it, and when it does not, they want it overturned.
What `chance' did I have in 1975? The f*cking EU did not even exist in 1975 nor would it for another 18 years .
How was someone in 1975 going to be able to meaningfully vote for something that would not exist for many, many years' let alone know, and understand what joining it would mean for the UK and themselves?.
The true f*ckwit is the one who thinks the UK citizens voting to remain in the EEC in 1975 (after already having been taken into it without their consent) means they also voted to go into a different organization which would not even exist for 18 years., And even with this.
the remainers are bleating that they did not have enough information in 2016 FFS!
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 21st August 13:22
Pan Pan Pan said:
banjowilly said:
I see the record with a scratch is back. You had your chance in 1975, so do pipe down with this endlessly repeated canard.
That's the trouble with remainers they shy away from the truth, like a vampire shies away from sunlight. Consequently when the truth is presented to them, they want to sweep it under the carpet as quickly as possible. Remainers are extremely upset. and frightened by the truth.Still, what can one expect from those who practice a highly selective version of democracy, where when a vote goes the way they want it to they accept it, and when it does not, they want it overturned.
What `chance' did I have in 1975? The f*cking EU did not even exist in 1975 nor would it for another 18 years .
How was someone in 1975 going to be able to meaningfully vote for something that would not exist exist for many, many years' let alone know, and understand what joining it would mean for the UK and themselves?.
The true f*ckwit is the one who thinks the UK citizens voting to remain in the EEC in 1975 (after already having been taken into it without their consent) means they also voted to go into a different organization which would not even exist for 18 years., And even with this.
the remainers are bleating that they did not have enough information in 2016 FFS!
kwit? Play nice. 
banjowilly said:
Garvin said:
Apologies for snipping your post but amongst the ranting this particular bit caught my eye. Do I take it you believe that we will Brexit on 31st October and all attempts to stop/delay it will come to nought?
Looks that way, don't you think? Johnson seems to be abrogating the serious task of resolving the border issue by insisting the EU remove the backstop without offering an alternative whilst simultaneously manoeuvring to side step parliament and/or run the clock down.Whether or not Parliamentary challenges will come to anything, I don't know. nevertheless, I was making a wider point about the notion October somehow represents the finish line, which it doesn't.
I was more interested in the acceptance of leaving bit as there are a great many things intimated about how Boris will be halted in his tracks but I have yet to track down anyone who can clearly articulate how this will actually be achieved. It seems to me you may share this view.
TTwiggy said:
Tony427 said:
Indeed, its amazing how quickly the results of the European elections have been forgotten.
How exactly did that go for the Remainers?
Well, I seem to recall a good set of results for the Libdems - the only party committed to remaining.How exactly did that go for the Remainers?
banjowilly said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
banjowilly said:
I see the record with a scratch is back. You had your chance in 1975, so do pipe down with this endlessly repeated canard.
That's the trouble with remainers they shy away from the truth, like a vampire shies away from sunlight. Consequently when the truth is presented to them, they want to sweep it under the carpet as quickly as possible. Remainers are extremely upset. and frightened by the truth.Still, what can one expect from those who practice a highly selective version of democracy, where when a vote goes the way they want it to they accept it, and when it does not, they want it overturned.
What `chance' did I have in 1975? The f*cking EU did not even exist in 1975 nor would it for another 18 years .
How was someone in 1975 going to be able to meaningfully vote for something that would not exist exist for many, many years' let alone know, and understand what joining it would mean for the UK and themselves?.
The true f*ckwit is the one who thinks the UK citizens voting to remain in the EEC in 1975 (after already having been taken into it without their consent) means they also voted to go into a different organization which would not even exist for 18 years., And even with this.
the remainers are bleating that they did not have enough information in 2016 FFS!
kwit? Play nice. Engelberger said:
crankedup said:
Entirely agree, although it seems that our Government has ordered the Civil Service to post haste
(turbocharged) with preparations for a no deal exit.
Well that is what they are SAYING is happening. The reality is very different based on my contacts. Perhaps you have some firm evidence? (turbocharged) with preparations for a no deal exit.
What the lunatics don't seem to grasp is that they are digging their own grave. It is so obvious and yet they still bleat the lines.
Take for example the idiot above bleating about VAT and Corp Tax rates. He has a point, we are currently restricted. However, he fails to realise that we haven't even taken the options we have to make changes and have never had any logical reason to go outside of the boundaries we and the other EU member states agreed to.
If you have any intellectual honesty the first thing you would consider is what circumstances you would have to fall outside of the boundaries currently in place? The instant reaction of the idiots is "giving the finger" to our largest trading partner. How do you think that would work out? Others will consider the economic impact in revenue. They will understand that economically we would be in serious straits to rely on this lever of economics. They would understand that VAT rates for example need to be sustained and take time to filter through to the economy.
But no, you keep pressing on towards the cliff.
Most amusing. Why rational people are indulging some of you I just don't understand. Anyone taking even a slice of what politicians say is a fool who will end up being dissapointed.
Let’s suggest that your remainer friends have not been moaning about paying about the cost of the non existent no deal preparation?Sure you may be annoyed about the decision to leave the E.U. but it is happening and no amount of
‘we told you so’ is going to stop it.
The politicians, are at least the honest ones, are following the electorates wish. 17.4 million of us.
banjowilly said:
All of these fallacies are advanced every day, so if you think October is the end of it, you are about to be badly disappointed. The minute we're out, the clamour to rejoin will begin.
I genuinely have no idea how things will develop over the next couple of months and I certainly wouldn't put my house on us being out of the EU by 31st October 2019. However, if we do eventually leave I think it's highly unlikely there will be an immediate clamour to rejoin; if we did get back in it would almost certainly be without the rebates and opt-outs we currently enjoy so if there was a majority to leave even when we had those things I don't see rejoining on less favourable terms being especially popular in the short-term. If we leave IMO it will be at least 10 years before anyone would seriously try to take us back in and by that stage the EU itself may look rather different from what it does now....
DeepEnd said:
Murph7355 said:
The "those who disagree with me must be stupid" approach has failed for the last 25ytd evidently.
That Mr Tusk is incapable of grasping this speaks volumes about him.
They are digging in this way solely because the WA crafted between them and Robbins is massively beneficial to them. That is fair enough, but comes with huge risk. That risk was never going. To materialise with May at the helm. That might now have changed.
A sensible counterpart would be prepared to discuss things bilaterally. Unless of course, to use Tusk's logic, they are simply against a deal.
He is just pointing out the dishonesty in the “we won’t build a border, it’s you” - childish and oft repeated here. That Mr Tusk is incapable of grasping this speaks volumes about him.
They are digging in this way solely because the WA crafted between them and Robbins is massively beneficial to them. That is fair enough, but comes with huge risk. That risk was never going. To materialise with May at the helm. That might now have changed.
A sensible counterpart would be prepared to discuss things bilaterally. Unless of course, to use Tusk's logic, they are simply against a deal.
The EU should see if there is something that can be done, but this looks like it will be in the PD, not WA.
The UK has backed itself into a daft corner - whilst 80% of the cabinet - including “the WA is undemocratic” Cleverly - voted for May’s deal, they have now painted it as toxic as part of their “negotiation tactic” and the super-EU-critics & followers have jumped on this bandwagon and an unchanged WA has become unpalatable.
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