How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)
Discussion
andymadmak said:
PositronicRay said:
Interesting, but I doubt it will fly. It does show however, that despite assertions from some quarters that the UK isn't coming up with anything, the reality is that behind the scenes, the thinking caps have clearly been applied. Now, that does not mean that anything of what comes out of that thinking will be any good!
But at least the ideas are flowing. I do wonder though if the solution might not be in some sort of agricultural dispensation? The fact is we are not going to have US chicken here any time soon, so maybe its possible to agree agricultural and food alignment on the Island of Ireland during the transition period? Would that be enough to protect the Irish economy? Would it be enough to placate the EU? Would the DUP object to that? I mean, as a practical matter, nothing will change in the short term anyway...
Edited for speeeeeling + to add the DUP bit
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 21st August 16:27
Dr Jekyll said:
andymadmak said:
I do wonder though if the solution might not be in some sort of agricultural dispensation? The fact is we are not going to have US chicken here any time soon, so maybe its possible to agree agricultural and food alignment on the Island of Ireland during the transition period? Would that be enough to protect the Irish economy? Would it be enough to placate the EU? Would the DUP object to that? I mean, as a practical matter, nothing will change in the short term anyway...
Given that the EU managed to ban British beef in the 90s without a hard border in Ireland, I don't see that even US chicken would be a problem.slow_poke said:
andymadmak said:
PositronicRay said:
Interesting, but I doubt it will fly. It does show however, that despite assertions from some quarters that the UK isn't coming up with anything, the reality is that behind the scenes, the thinking caps have clearly been applied. Now, that does not mean that anything of what comes out of that thinking will be any good!
But at least the ideas are flowing. I do wonder though if the solution might not be in some sort of agricultural dispensation? The fact is we are not going to have US chicken here any time soon, so maybe its possible to agree agricultural and food alignment on the Island of Ireland during the transition period? Would that be enough to protect the Irish economy? Would it be enough to placate the EU? Would the DUP object to that? I mean, as a practical matter, nothing will change in the short term anyway...
Edited for speeeeeling + to add the DUP bit
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 21st August 16:27
slow_poke said:
Hah. Those thinking caps must be the tall & pointy types with the letter "D" on them. Do they seriously think the Micks will even entertain such a notion, especially after the castigation and smearing published about them in certain sections of the UK media?
Yawn. Predictably hostile response. Look, ideas are needed. I did say that this was unlikely to fly, and that it's possible that none of the ideas are going to be any good. The point is, it looks like people are making efforts behind the scenes to come up with something workable. I say good luck to them. Surely most of us want to see a sensible conclusion if one is possible to pull together?
Or shall we just stop talking and thinking and not bother waiting till 31st October to leave? Would you rather the UK left tomorrow?
banjowilly said:
crankedup said:
For some inexplicable reason banjowilly seems unable to grasp this simple notion. Obvious reason
reason being because it blasts open the basis of his/her contention about U.K. democracy.
It's a point of view Crankie but it's addressed only a few posts up. Been at the Greene King, lad? reason being because it blasts open the basis of his/her contention about U.K. democracy.
Yes I did pop into the Greene King, but that was a days ago, they do have an excellent pub attached to the brewery. I strongly recommend it to every ale enthusiast
I will go back over the above posts to see what I have apparently missed.
slow_poke said:
andymadmak said:
PositronicRay said:
Interesting, but I doubt it will fly. It does show however, that despite assertions from some quarters that the UK isn't coming up with anything, the reality is that behind the scenes, the thinking caps have clearly been applied. Now, that does not mean that anything of what comes out of that thinking will be any good!
But at least the ideas are flowing. I do wonder though if the solution might not be in some sort of agricultural dispensation? The fact is we are not going to have US chicken here any time soon, so maybe its possible to agree agricultural and food alignment on the Island of Ireland during the transition period? Would that be enough to protect the Irish economy? Would it be enough to placate the EU? Would the DUP object to that? I mean, as a practical matter, nothing will change in the short term anyway...
Edited for speeeeeling + to add the DUP bit
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 21st August 16:27
andymadmak said:
slow_poke said:
Hah. Those thinking caps must be the tall & pointy types with the letter "D" on them. Do they seriously think the Micks will even entertain such a notion, especially after the castigation and smearing published about them in certain sections of the UK media?
Yawn. Predictably hostile response. Look, ideas are needed. I did say that this was unlikely to fly, and that it's possible that none of the ideas are going to be any good. The point is, it looks like people are making efforts behind the scenes to come up with something workable. I say good luck to them. Surely most of us want to see a sensible conclusion if one is possible to pull together?
Or shall we just stop talking and thinking and not bother waiting till 31st October to leave? Would you rather the UK left tomorrow?
Your second question - yeah, I'll take a tomorrow departure. As a pro-Leaver but pro-deal Leaver, I'd prefer if the UK exited with a deal. But if there's not going to be a deal, and that risible suggestion of pulling Eire into the Brexit with the UK is the best idea they can come up with to secure a deal, then there may as well just Brexit tomorrow. No point in dragging it out to October.
PositronicRay said:
So the WA backstop is not democratic but saying Ireland should leave the EU with out any democratic input is democratic?Leins said:
PositronicRay said:
No thanks. I'd prefer us (RoI) to stick with what we have with the EU, no matter what pain is inflicted on us from BrexitFor me, other than a no deal, the most likely outcome would be that Boris ends up selling out the DUP, and NI stays in the CU. But we're pretty much all bracing for no deal over here
I would suggest that No Deal is by far the most likely outcome now, preferably mitigated by an interim standstill using WTO Article XXIV if the politicians have any sense.
slow_poke said:
Your second question - yeah, I'll take a tomorrow departure. As a pro-Leaver but pro-deal Leaver, I'd prefer if the UK exited with a deal. But if there's not going to be a deal, and that risible suggestion of pulling Eire into the Brexit with the UK is the best idea they can come up with to secure a deal, then there may as well just Brexit tomorrow. No point in dragging it out to October.
Fair enough. I actually agree with you on this. ( if there is not going to be a deal etc) But, I do think a deal is still possible. History will eventually see the truth of the situation. andymadmak said:
Elysium said:
Stuff
.
I am interested that you believe a consensus can be found. Do you have any thoughts as to what that might look like, and what % of the electorate might be able to unite behind it ?.
The Brexiteers are still being unrealistic - selling a version of Brexit that the EU will never agree and then blaming others for their own lack of vision. No-deal is going to cement that problem rather than fix it.
May never bothered to find out what sort of deal Parliament could approve.
Both different modes of failure.
If Brexit is a good idea, it should not be so difficult for a leader to define a vision that both parliament and the EU will agree. The EU are locked down at this point, but we need to accept that we have helped paint them into this corner.
We have spent 3 years on this already, another 6 months won’t hurt.
We should revoke article 50 and let the next general election be fought based on a proper ambition for our future outside the EU. If we end up with a leave PM they will be free to start negotiations again, but this time toward an objective that has support.
Of course that would be impossible for leavers to accept. I think mainly because they are afraid the majority have had enough of Brexit and would cancel the whole thing.
Brooking10 said:
You’re answering a question I’m not asking.
As I say this is purely hypothetical and focussed only on whether/why there is an objection to the people being asked what type of exit they would support.
I think the objection stems from the fact it seems to offer up a situation which lets say has 3 leave options and the 4th is Remain meaning that remain will by virtue always have the upper hand. That then subverts the result of the first vote.As I say this is purely hypothetical and focussed only on whether/why there is an objection to the people being asked what type of exit they would support.
But also leave remain was simple, leave how is not simple and I am not sure it could be distilled into a few words on a ballot.
For what it's worth while I voted leave I would be happy for a party to have a manifesto pledge to re join the EU. How long that would take I am not sure but I suspect we could if there was the will.
Also we had a referendum then an election if remain was a big issue people could have voted lib dems in the last election but they did not
andymadmak said:
Yawn. Predictably hostile response. Look, ideas are needed. I did say that this was unlikely to fly, and that it's possible that none of the ideas are going to be any good. The point is, it looks like people are making efforts behind the scenes to come up with something workable.
I say good luck to them. Surely most of us want to see a sensible conclusion if one is possible to pull together?
Or shall we just stop talking and thinking and not bother waiting till 31st October to leave? Would you rather the UK left tomorrow?
Many would prefer we remain as we see a lot of leavers have ideas about brexit that are as good as yours (i.e. risible and ill-conceived) and realise that your vote to leave was probably similarly well considered. I say good luck to them. Surely most of us want to see a sensible conclusion if one is possible to pull together?
Or shall we just stop talking and thinking and not bother waiting till 31st October to leave? Would you rather the UK left tomorrow?
You’ve had three years grace to show us all how good it could be and proved it was always a stupid idea. And brexit errs then blamed remainers for their own staggering lack of ability and judgement.
I see some moaning about the deal over the EIB. What did they really expect, it’s just hopelessly naive.
Edited by DeepEnd on Wednesday 21st August 17:29
Elysium said:
The one thing that has been completely absent through this Brexit debate is any sort of detail about the future relationship we want with the EU.
The Brexiteers are still being unrealistic - selling a version of Brexit that the EU will never agree and then blaming others for their own lack of vision. No-deal is going to cement that problem rather than fix it.
May never bothered to find out what sort of deal Parliament could approve.
Both different modes of failure.
If Brexit is a good idea, it should not be so difficult for a leader to define a vision that both parliament and the EU will agree. The EU are locked down at this point, but we need to accept that we have helped paint them into this corner.
We have spent 3 years on this already, another 6 months won’t hurt.
We should revoke article 50 and let the next general election be fought based on a proper ambition for our future outside the EU. If we end up with a leave PM they will be free to start negotiations again, but this time toward an objective that has support.
Of course that would be impossible for leavers to accept. I think mainly because they are afraid the majority have had enough of Brexit and would cancel the whole thing.
Oh, OK. So you say you think a consensus can be found, but when asked to define what you think that might look like it basically boils down to cancel Brexit. The Brexiteers are still being unrealistic - selling a version of Brexit that the EU will never agree and then blaming others for their own lack of vision. No-deal is going to cement that problem rather than fix it.
May never bothered to find out what sort of deal Parliament could approve.
Both different modes of failure.
If Brexit is a good idea, it should not be so difficult for a leader to define a vision that both parliament and the EU will agree. The EU are locked down at this point, but we need to accept that we have helped paint them into this corner.
We have spent 3 years on this already, another 6 months won’t hurt.
We should revoke article 50 and let the next general election be fought based on a proper ambition for our future outside the EU. If we end up with a leave PM they will be free to start negotiations again, but this time toward an objective that has support.
Of course that would be impossible for leavers to accept. I think mainly because they are afraid the majority have had enough of Brexit and would cancel the whole thing.
DeepEnd said:
Many would prefer we remain as we see a lot of leavers have ideas about brexit that are as good as yours (i.e. risible and ill-conceived) and realise that your vote to leave was probably similarly well considered.
You’ve had three years grace to show us all how good it could be and proved it was always a stupid idea. And brexit errs then blamed remainers for their own staggering lack of ability and judgement.
I see some moaning about the deal over the EIB. What did they really expect, it’s just hopelessly naive.
And what ideas of mine have you identified as "risible and ill conceived" ? You’ve had three years grace to show us all how good it could be and proved it was always a stupid idea. And brexit errs then blamed remainers for their own staggering lack of ability and judgement.
I see some moaning about the deal over the EIB. What did they really expect, it’s just hopelessly naive.
Edited by DeepEnd on Wednesday 21st August 17:29
Elysium said:
The one thing that has been completely absent through this Brexit debate is any sort of detail about the future relationship we want with the EU.
The Brexiteers are still being unrealistic - selling a version of Brexit that the EU will never agree and then blaming others for their own lack of vision. No-deal is going to cement that problem rather than fix it.
May never bothered to find out what sort of deal Parliament could approve.
Both different modes of failure.
If Brexit is a good idea, it should not be so difficult for a leader to define a vision that both parliament and the EU will agree. The EU are locked down at this point, but we need to accept that we have helped paint them into this corner.
We have spent 3 years on this already, another 6 months won’t hurt.
We should revoke article 50 and let the next general election be fought based on a proper ambition for our future outside the EU. If we end up with a leave PM they will be free to start negotiations again, but this time toward an objective that has support.
Of course that would be impossible for leavers to accept. I think mainly because they are afraid the majority have had enough of Brexit and would cancel the whole thing.
We can't do that though. EU law on the matter is that, yes, it can be revoked, but it has to be a permanent and genuine revocation. The Brexiteers are still being unrealistic - selling a version of Brexit that the EU will never agree and then blaming others for their own lack of vision. No-deal is going to cement that problem rather than fix it.
May never bothered to find out what sort of deal Parliament could approve.
Both different modes of failure.
If Brexit is a good idea, it should not be so difficult for a leader to define a vision that both parliament and the EU will agree. The EU are locked down at this point, but we need to accept that we have helped paint them into this corner.
We have spent 3 years on this already, another 6 months won’t hurt.
We should revoke article 50 and let the next general election be fought based on a proper ambition for our future outside the EU. If we end up with a leave PM they will be free to start negotiations again, but this time toward an objective that has support.
Of course that would be impossible for leavers to accept. I think mainly because they are afraid the majority have had enough of Brexit and would cancel the whole thing.
Besides that, things have gone too far over the past three years; whether you agree that leaving was a good idea or not, revoking and remaining would put us at massive disadvantage.
crankedup said:
In your opinion the way our Parliamentary democracy has worked for centuries is not working well?
Yes I did pop into the Greene King, but that was a days ago, they do have an excellent pub attached to the brewery. I strongly recommend it to every ale enthusiast
I will go back over the above posts to see what I have apparently missed.
I like a nice Rioja, amigo..Yes I did pop into the Greene King, but that was a days ago, they do have an excellent pub attached to the brewery. I strongly recommend it to every ale enthusiast
I will go back over the above posts to see what I have apparently missed.
It's not a matter of opinion, Crankie, it's a matter of fact. It works the way it works. PPPPPPPPP's starting point is wrong, everything else is just noise.
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