How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[anonymous-user]

banjowilly said:

I'm being told by a sponsor of Brexit that he knew exactly what he was voting for in 2016, that he knew how things would turn out & presumably is inviting me to search three years of posts confidently pointing out that the NI border was fully factored in his thought process & he'd also priced in two dead prime ministers & the revival of a borderline fascist & his £25 a pop party.

I mean, I admire the swagger but it's about as believable as putting a child in charge of a fighter jet. And then when I consider how you declined to offer a leave campaigner punting no deal. You know why? Because they all promised it would be great, a new dawn with all we have now & more. Not one of them mentioned rationing, stockpiling, Billions spent on mitigating the damage, channel chaos, prostrating ourselves before a messianic imbecile in the White house. None of that ever came up on the stump did it?

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Thank god for that........

[ClaphamGT3]

s2art said:

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Give it a break. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a decent deal was never guaranteed. If you want someone to blame look to May, She screwed up the negotiation.

I knew that and pretty much every remainer I’ve spoken to knew that. The people who didn’t were the leavers who were seduced by all the lies about ‘easiest deal in history”/“deal done in afternoon” peddled by the charlatans who promoted leave. Some Brexiteers at least have the good grace to acknowledge that. Many - most - who post here do not and persist with their preposterous revisionism.

[amusingduck]

ClaphamGT3 said:

s2art said:

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Give it a break. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a decent deal was never guaranteed. If you want someone to blame look to May, She screwed up the negotiation.

I knew that and pretty much every remainer I’ve spoken to knew that. The people who didn’t were the leavers who were seduced by all the lies about ‘easiest deal in history”/“deal done in afternoon” peddled by the charlatans who promoted leave. Some Brexiteers at least have the good grace to acknowledge that. Many - most - who post here do not and persist with their preposterous revisionism.

[citation needed]

ashcroft said:

Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.”

Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.”

Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”

[Elysium]

s2art said:

Elysium said:

s2art said:

Elysium said:

s2art said:

Elysium said:

I didn't say it was a caveat. I said that the only clear mandate was to leave with a decent deal. That is less than the leave campaign promised and the least that the electorate should have expected from a moderately competent administration.

.

This is drivel. Leave was a 'must have' thats what the vote said. With a decent deal is a 'nice to have' and couldnt be guaranteed as it requires agreement on both parties.

So we get to no-deal through incompetence, but we must do it because we have a mandate to leave?

That's all well and good, but its not the only option. The 31st Oct 2019 is not a real deadline, it has been moved twice already, and it is unsurprisingly true that the EU would prefer us to leave with a deal.

So we should get to work solving the problem instead of copping out.

And exactly how do we do that if the EU wont budge?

They don't need to budge

The clue is in what Merkel and Macron said to Boris.

Then I have no idea of what your talking about. Boris and team have been working hard, and surprisingly intelligently, to get a decent deal.

They need to crack on and find something that will render the backstop redundant which will be acceptable to the EU and will allow Parliament to ratify the withdrawal agreement.

Its the same thing that was needed in Nov 18. Nothing has changed and there is no need for the EU to budge. Just positive problem solving.

[Gecko1978]

s2art said:

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Give it a break. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a decent deal was never guaranteed. If you want someone to blame look to May, She screwed up the negotiation.

I recall Nigle Farage said it would be the easiest deal in history unless politics got in the way as all our regs are the same on day 1. That is true now as it ever was. No deal is down to politics and was always on the cards but like all parties when wanting your vote they paint the best picture. Of anyone had doubts they could vote remain.

[amusingduck]

Gecko1978 said:

s2art said:

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Give it a break. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a decent deal was never guaranteed. If you want someone to blame look to May, She screwed up the negotiation.

I recall Nigle Farage said it would be the easiest deal in history unless politics got in the way as all our regs are the same on day 1. That is true now as it ever was. No deal is down to politics and was always on the cards but like all parties when wanting your vote they paint the best picture. Of anyone had doubts they could vote remain.

That was Liam Fox

[s2art]

Elysium said:

They need to crack on and find something that will render the backstop redundant which will be acceptable to the EU and will allow Parliament to ratify the withdrawal agreement.

Its the same thing that was needed in Nov 18. Nothing has changed and there is no need for the EU to budge. Just positive problem solving.

The backstop isnt the only problem with May's WA. Its full of horrors, which is why I think no deal is the way to go, On Nov 1 present the EU with a Canada style FTA.

[Earthdweller]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

banjowilly said:

Garvin said:

a no deal Brexit was always a possibility when the referendum was held and nothing you or anyone else says will change that fact.

This is flat out untrue Go and find me a leave campaigner from 2016 who campaigned on this. I'll take one from Farage, Hannan, Johnson, Gove, Stewart or Hoey. Your pick. There is no mandate for no deal. We may get that, but you don't get to rewrite the campaign with a lie simply because it's been such a balls up as we predicted it would be that you now have to claim it was on the cards all along.

Indeed - a classic example of how, in the minds of all too many Brexiteers, the consequences of Brexit move from “project fear!” To “what we voted for!” Without ever passing through any sort of rational analysis

You two should not actually be able to vote if you can tell the difference between possible outcomes of the referendumn in the way it was set up in voting ( no caveats ) on no deal, and what politicians campaigned on.
Cameron and Co could have set out a blocking motion not to leave without a deal or a final vote in parliament or something else, but they didn't though.
Guess what ? Politicians on all sides don't campaign on the negative stuff , they tell you the good stuff. Your job as an adult ( if either of you are ) is the balance it out for yourself.
Coming on here and crying that they didn't tell you this is pathetic in the extreme.
Sorry, Remail bet the house and the whole in a blank cheque referendum, and lost !

It might be worth you reading what we actually wrote, not what you’ve convinced yourself we wrote.

There aren’t too many big words so take your time and I’m sure you’ll be alright....

Banjoman's idiocy was to write that no deal was not a possibility in the referendum. That’s a quite blatant lie you then got in on.
If you support liar morons, I might chalk you down as the same.

Tell me, when you voted that day, what blocked a no deal outcome

Edited by Earthdweller on Saturday 24th August 17:09

[Earthdweller]

https://youtu.be/SYLQtDpVWCA

Here is Philip Hammond giving a speech at Chatham house on 2nd March 2016 where he outlines all the options and states quite categorically that “No Deal” “WTO” is the default and most honest option .. and will happen if a deal cannot be done

From about 9 minutes in

16.29 is where he talks about the default “no deal option”

Edited by Earthdweller on Saturday 24th August 17:19

[banjowilly]

Earthdweller said:

https://youtu.be/SYLQtDpVWCA

Here is Philip Hammond giving a speech at Chatham house on 2nd March 2016 where he outlines all the options and states quite categorically that “No Deal” “WTO” is the default and most honest option .. and will happen if a deal cannot be done

From about 9 minutes in

It must be the only time in the history of voting where people voted for a campaign despite "knowing" they were lying to them, as the opposing campaign were telling the truth. It just shows what a complete shambles and farce it all is. I mean I'm not sure what you think you're proving here, that remain predicted exactly what would happen while all the leave side denied it, frantically labelling it project fear!


You are asking me to accept you listened to Hammond, believed him, voted leave anyway & then spent the next three years calling any brexit warning project fear. It's all a bit much to swallow from what are clearly otherwise very, very honest people. (citation needed)

To be fair, the push back is wholly expected. The idea is so preposterous but what can you do? It's fallen to bits before your eyes so you have to claim it was what you wanted - ego precludes. I get that.

Edited by banjowilly on Saturday 24th August 17:27

[gooner1]

Earthdweller said:

https://youtu.be/SYLQtDpVWCA

Here is Philip Hammond giving a speech at Chatham house on 2nd March 2016 where he outlines all the options and states quite categorically that “No Deal” “WTO” is the default and most honest option .. and will happen if a deal cannot be done

From about 9 minutes in

Good old spreadsheet, the fountain of truth and champion of reality.

[frisbee]

amusingduck said:

That was Liam Fox

What's happened to him? Bold statements but not actually achieving anything, a perfect candidate to be a Brexit god.

[Gecko1978]

amusingduck said:

Gecko1978 said:

s2art said:

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

Give it a break. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that a decent deal was never guaranteed. If you want someone to blame look to May, She screwed up the negotiation.

I recall Nigle Farage said it would be the easiest deal in history unless politics got in the way as all our regs are the same on day 1. That is true now as it ever was. No deal is down to politics and was always on the cards but like all parties when wanting your vote they paint the best picture. Of anyone had doubts they could vote remain.

That was Liam Fox

thanks for the correction but the point still stands a deal depended on politics and so it got in the way as was always the risk

[Otis Criblecoblis]

banjowilly said:

Yeah, he hasn't read it. Point proved. CGT3

Garvin said no deal was a possibility.
You said untrue.
When you voted that day, what ruled no deal out ?
Let's see how you weasel out of answering or if Clapham can do it for you.

Edited by Otis Criblecoblis on Saturday 24th August 17:56

[S1KRR]

ClaphamGT3 said:

I knew that and pretty much every remainer I’ve spoken to knew that. The people who didn’t were the leavers who were seduced by all the lies about ‘easiest deal in history”/“deal done in afternoon” peddled by the charlatans who promoted leave. Some Brexiteers at least have the good grace to acknowledge that. Many - most - who post here do not and persist with their preposterous revisionism.

No, we knew that too. I don't doubt that some certainly didn't consider it a possibility. But then I daresay a lot of Remainers believed Clegg when he said no to any form of EU Army (or defence force to give it another name) And no move to QMV or removal of our Veto....

I never understood why Remainers believed people like Clegg.

[Mrr T]

s2art said:

I think the WTO option was mentioned here;

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/live-from-th...

Mentioned by the great Nige as the worst case scenario.

He also seems to have said.
"the cost of tariffs would be less than our next contribution"

I have no idea what that means.

Edited by Mrr T on Saturday 24th August 18:33

[Le Controleur Horizontal]

S1KRR said:

No, we knew that too. I don't doubt that some certainly didn't consider it a possibility. But then I daresay a lot of Remainers believed Clegg when he said no to any form of EU Army (or defence force to give it another name) And no move to QMV or removal of our Veto....

I never understood why Remainers believed people like Clegg.

Or Tony (We can reform it from inside, but I will give it all away for a BIG JOB) Blair

[Earthdweller]

banjowilly said:

Earthdweller said:

https://youtu.be/SYLQtDpVWCA

Here is Philip Hammond giving a speech at Chatham house on 2nd March 2016 where he outlines all the options and states quite categorically that “No Deal” “WTO” is the default and most honest option .. and will happen if a deal cannot be done

From about 9 minutes in

It must be the only time in the history of voting where people voted for a campaign despite "knowing" they were lying to them, as the opposing campaign were telling the truth. It just shows what a complete shambles and farce it all is. I mean I'm not sure what you think you're proving here, that remain predicted exactly what would happen while all the leave side denied it, frantically labelling it project fear!


You are asking me to accept you listened to Hammond, believed him, voted leave anyway & then spent the next three years calling any brexit warning project fear. It's all a bit much to swallow from what are clearly otherwise very, very honest people. (citation needed)

To be fair, the push back is wholly expected. The idea is so preposterous but what can you do? It's fallen to bits before your eyes so you have to claim it was what you wanted - ego precludes. I get that.

Edited by banjowilly on Saturday 24th August 17:27

The assumption you make is that I voted leave

The point IS that the information WAS out there before the referendum

Don’t keep at this ste that people didn’t know what the risks were and that they didn’t vote for no deal

Hammond clear as crystal “ the default setting is no deal if you vote to leave”

Many others were saying exactly the same thing

Trying to say otherwise is just bks

[anonymous-user]

Mrr T said:

I have no idea what that means.

Unsurprising

[banjowilly]

Earthdweller said:

The assumption you make is that I voted leave

The point IS that the information WAS out there before the referendum

Don’t keep at this ste that people didn’t know what the risks were and that they didn’t vote for no deal

Hammond clear as crystal “ the default setting is no deal if you vote to leave”

Many others were saying exactly the same thing

Trying to say otherwise is just bks

Assuming you did,then given how often you raise a few hundred uppity beef farmers whining about Mercosur as an existential threat to the EU...
Right so according to you, you believed Hammond, Cameron, Osborn & the rest when they spelt out the risks of no deal but voted against them anyway even though you believed them. Then spent three years calling it all 'Project fear' whilst lovingly stroking your chin at Fox's easiest deal in history, Hannan's no one's threatening our place in the single market & all the rest of the bks.

I'd be throwing a few fks around in distraction if I'd been caught out in a pile of lies too - I said I get it & I do.

What would be truthful is had you said I believed it would all work out, but it's all gone wrong, we never thought about the border & the only way now is to ram it through by kicking parliament to the kerb if needs be even though I've hung my hat on parliament being sovereign (but only when it suits me) That I could accept, but this narrative that we always knew what we were voting for? What a pile of guff!!

Or the other eye watering possibility that you accepted the reality of no deal as laid out by remain & voted to set back the country by twenty years anyway (fifty according to Rees-Mogg) In that scenario, what kind of reckless vandal does that make you? Patriot? Pull the other one.