How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[banjowilly]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

He has clearly claimed no deal was not a possible outcome. That's an outright lie as nothing blocked this

This is one of about four occasions in the past twenty four hours where I've explained clearly the substance of my argument which is not remotely what you are claiming I have said. There are only tow possibilities therefore - you either lack the capacity to understand it or you do understand it but seek to misrepresent it continually, which goes some way towards giving it the same weight I do.

Either way, you are flogging a dead horse & it's insulting people's intelligence that you keep trying this discredited line.

banjowilly said:

As has been pointed out exhaustively, Brexit is an abject failure on every intellectual level. Leave plans collapse under any scrutiny & so the only way this can be realised is by ramming it through without agreement & in turn, the only way that can be justified is by the likes of you insisting you voted for it all along.

And here is another.

banjowilly said:

You & all the rest are rewriting the narrative because you have to. You have no choice now it's abundantly clear the only way this thing can be conjured into being is by forcing it through in the most damaging way possible. We all know this & weasel words that you knew & fully accepted it was an outcome when you voted is hilarious.

And given your predictable doubling down on the name calling, I'm done with you now. You're in over your head & I can do without babysitting your poundshop cognitive abilities.

[jakesmith]

Brooking10 said:

gooner1 said:

And you should assume " our problems" is part of the "BIg picture" triggered.

Ok Goon

Trying to move the debate on here but you just can’t help yourself

Chaps this is getting silly now. Let’s all have a sensible reasoned debate and be respectful of the views of others, even if they are morons or remoaners etc. I don’t think people should be calling Brexit voters ‘thick’. It’s insulting and mighty upset someone. That’s too high a price to pay for a mass debate.

[Sway]

jakesmith said:

Brooking10 said:

gooner1 said:

And you should assume " our problems" is part of the "BIg picture" triggered.

Ok Goon

Trying to move the debate on here but you just can’t help yourself

Chaps this is getting silly now. Let’s all have a sensible reasoned debate and be respectful of the views of others, even if they are morons or remoaners etc. I don’t think people should be calling Brexit voters ‘thick’. It’s insulting and mighty upset someone. That’s too high a price to pay for a mass debate.

Hear hear.

[gooner1]

Brooking10 said:

Ok Goon

Trying to move the debate on here but you just can’t help yourself

You asked for opinions on how to fix a problem, I tried to help and now you're upset?

You just can't handle criticism Trev.
Now stop sulking and perhaps we can all move on.

[anonymous-user]

Brooking10 said:

Open question to the more vociferous of our “Leave at any costs” corespondents

In a sentence or two why the increasingly triumphalist language and persistent desire to revel in victory of outcome over those who don’t agree ?

I’ve never witnessed anything like it in forty something years. It’s a type of tribalism that makes football rivalries seem grounded in common sense !

Beyond the PH bubble and being semi serious for a moment if this behaviour is indicative of attitudes across the country it’s going to take some effort to repair things.

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

[Otis Criblecoblis]

banjowilly said:

Garvin said:

a no deal Brexit was always a possibility when the referendum was held and nothing you or anyone else says will change that fact.

This is flat out untrue Go and find me a leave campaigner from 2016 who campaigned on this. I'll take one from Farage, Hannan, Johnson, Gove, Stewart or Hoey. Your pick. There is no mandate for no deal. We may get that, but you don't get to rewrite the campaign with a lie simply because it's been such a balls up as we predicted it would be that you now have to claim it was on the cards all along.

Here is your idiocy. Here you denied the possibility of a no deal Brexit .

I'll help you out further too, you did so because you ignored pages of argument saying it was a possible outcome from the way the referendum was set up with no caveats to exclude this, and confused it with what politicians on the Leave campaigned on.

Here's the correct answer you and Elysium are afraid to say - ' yes a no deal was always a possibility from the way the referendum was set up, but I'm very angry that no Leave campaigner told me in the end the only way to leave might be with no deal'.

[Crackie]

banjowilly said:

And given your predictable doubling down on the name calling, You're in over your head & I can do without babysitting your poundshop cognitive abilities.

It's the way you tell 'em Wally.

[anonymous-user]

gooner1 said:

You asked for opinions on how to fix a problem, I tried to help and now you're upset?

You just can't handle criticism Trev.
Now stop sulking and perhaps we can all move on.

Yep failing to read what is written , replying antagonistically and using “triggered” always helps as we attempt to move the debate on from personal attacks.

[anonymous-user]

jsf said:

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

This is interesting in my opinion. Despite my own vote I do feel strongly about democracy and that even if it’s too important for the people it’s important that we uphold it.

So who comprises this group, how does it manifest itself and what steps should they/it take in a post Brexit world to make reparation ?

[NoNeed]

Brooking10 said:

jsf said:

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

This is interesting in my opinion. Despite my own vote I do feel strongly about democracy and that even if it’s too important for the people it’s important that we uphold it.

So who comprises this group, how does it manifest itself and what steps should they/it take in a post Brexit world to make reparation ?

They could turm their attention to the future arragement rather than preventing leave,at least that would have an air of good faith.

[amusingduck]

amusingduck said:

Elysium said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Elysium said:

I can't see any signs of blind rage?

All I see is one person, who says he thought no-deal might happen, but voted to leave anyway. One person, out of 17m, who is happy to assume everyone else felt the same as him, in order to get what he wants.

In which case, any leave voters who made their choice based on the perfectly reasonable assumption that the UK Govt would not be entirely incompetent are st out of luck.

No-deal is defeatist at the best of times, but when its being promoted by the people who told the voters that a deal with be easy, then it's also a lie and a con trick.

Lets try the same simple question with you.
When you went to the polls that day, what ruled no deal out ?

As I have said previously, ruling it out is irrelevant. The issue is that it is not mandated, because voters would reasonable expect Govt to exercise even a tiny degree of competence and because the people now promoting it are the same people who promised it would never happen in 2016.

But you are going to keep ignoring that simple answer and ask the same inane question over and over again in the belief that it constitutes intelligent debate.

The only thing that was mandated was that we leave. There is no mandate for what you think voters would reasonably expect, as that is not what was voted upon.

If Parliament accepted May's Deal, would you be arguing that there was no mandate for that, since that was completely unforeseen pre-vote?

Thinking a little more about this, I'm pretty sure I recall you either supporting May's deal, or at least accepting it as a valid outcome of the referendum. I can only see one way that could be argued - that it (would have) passed Parliamentary scrutiny. Just as the withdrawal act did.

Parliament's rhetoric does not outweigh their actions, and their actions were to approve legislation that allows us to leave without a deal if one is not agreed. You may not like that outcome, but it's followed all of the required processes, and is therefore not without mandate. It fulfills the only mandate provided by the referendum, to leave the EU.

No amount of rhetoric from Parliament will change this. They've had ample opportunities to act, and their actions lead us to no deal, at least until this point in time. Who knows what the future holds

[anonymous-user]

It's a beautiful day chaps, Boris is having a great summit, massively boosted by The Donald.

Tusk is worried and on the home front Grandpa is now stating he won't call a VoNC, the first week Parliament reconvenes as the Tory rebel support has collapsed

[jakesmith]

Brooking10 said:

jsf said:

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

This is interesting in my opinion. Despite my own vote I do feel strongly about democracy and that even if it’s too important for the people it’s important that we uphold it.

So who comprises this group, how does it manifest itself and what steps should they/it take in a post Brexit world to make reparation ?

I voted Remain but accept we should now leave on 31st Oct however we can best manage as it is the proper thing to do. It’s not like we reran a GE after Blair took us into Iraq despite it not being part of Labours manifesto

IMO we are a powerful economic force and however much damage is done by Brexit, and I believe it will do damage, it will be the lesser of the evils presented by the choice of economic damage or, if we don’t leave, the inevitable constitutional crisis and the dangerous power struggle that could trigger of which a Corbyn government is just one bad possibility

[frisbee]

NoNeed said:

Brooking10 said:

jsf said:

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

This is interesting in my opinion. Despite my own vote I do feel strongly about democracy and that even if it’s too important for the people it’s important that we uphold it.

So who comprises this group, how does it manifest itself and what steps should they/it take in a post Brexit world to make reparation ?

They could turm their attention to the future arragement rather than preventing leave,at least that would have an air of good faith.

Nah, carrying on doing whatever we can to ruin Brexit will suit me fine.

You had your chance, you failed.

[anonymous-user]

NoNeed said:

They could turm their attention to the future arragement rather than preventing leave,at least that would have an air of good faith.

This kind of brings us back to where things started to derail a bit though.

Outwith the obvious political dimension (i.e. HM opposition isn’t going to support HMG in today’s environment and with the current cast of actors) I see little credible clamour for overturning the vote way from front line politics.

I see a lot of concern about the flavour of exit in the real world but that’s not the same thing as undermining the base decision.

[NoNeed]

Brooking10 said:

NoNeed said:

They could turm their attention to the future arragement rather than preventing leave,at least that would have an air of good faith.

This kind of brings us back to where things started to derail a bit though.

Outwith the obvious political dimension (i.e. HM opposition isn’t going to support HMG in today’s environment and with the current cast of actors) I see little credible clamour for overturning the vote way from front line politics.

I see a lot of concern about the flavour of exit in the real world but that’s not the same thing as undermining the base decision.

Parliament in my mind should have concentrated in some sort of transition period where by we sort out tge fuyure arrangements, that may have taken many more years but if done from the start we would have been a lot further aling now with far less uncertainty

[crankedup]

amusingduck said:

Brooking10 said:

Open question to the more vociferous of our “Leave at any costs” corespondents

In a sentence or two why the increasingly triumphalist language and persistent desire to revel in victory of outcome over those who don’t agree ?

I’ve never witnessed anything like it in forty something years. It’s a type of tribalism that makes football rivalries seem grounded in common sense !

Beyond the PH bubble and being semi serious for a moment if this behaviour is indicative of attitudes across the country it’s going to take some effort to repair things.

For a long time, it looked like we were going to have either BRINO or revoke. Do you not recall the triumphalist language during those years? Brexit ain't happening and you know it snowflakes! I recall There were hundreds of posts gloating about how Brexit was going to be stopped, for years.

It goes both ways.

It certainly does cut both ways, not long ago it was pee taking regarding the number of brexiteers participating in a ‘brexit demo’ publicity stunt. Pee taking at the image of ‘gammons’ attending a brexit meeting. The death wishes openly used upon people as was used against me in this very forum, ‘I hope you will soon die’!!!! I didn’t report it as I felt extreme sorrow for the poster who had sunk to such a low level. Yes it certainly cuts both ways.

[gooner1]

Brooking10 said:

gooner1 said:

You agree that in any dealings whatsoever that no deal is always an option then?

Eh ?

Not sure how to make it any clearer tbh, TREV.

[anonymous-user]

gooner1 said:

Brooking10 said:

gooner1 said:

You agree that in any dealings whatsoever that no deal is always an option then?

Eh ?

Not sure how to make it any clearer tbh, TREV.

I was questioning its relevance to that point of the conversation given it seemed entirely out of context.

[amusingduck]

frisbee said:

NoNeed said:

Brooking10 said:

jsf said:

Its certainly going to take a lot of effort to undo the damage caused by the losing side in a Democratic vote refusing to accept they lost.

This is interesting in my opinion. Despite my own vote I do feel strongly about democracy and that even if it’s too important for the people it’s important that we uphold it.

So who comprises this group, how does it manifest itself and what steps should they/it take in a post Brexit world to make reparation ?

They could turm their attention to the future arragement rather than preventing leave,at least that would have an air of good faith.

Nah, carrying on doing whatever we can to ruin Brexit will suit me fine.

You had your chance, you failed.

What's that, then?