How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[DeepEnd]

banjowilly said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

You are the most appallingly blatant liar

your own idiocy,

you are a liar

you'd fked-up.

He seems more interested in insulting those who disagree with him than understanding the point.

Settling on “a great UK-EU deal” being a key objective and message for the leave campaign seems like potential common ground. All should be able to agree to that.

[Garvin]

DeepEnd said:

banjowilly said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

You are the most appallingly blatant liar

your own idiocy,

you are a liar

you'd fked-up.

He seems more interested in insulting those who disagree with him than understanding the point.

Settling on “a great UK-EU deal” being a key objective and message for the leave campaign seems like potential common ground. All should be able to agree to that.

You are Grima Wormtongue AICMFP.

Let’s face it, anyone relying on your support on here is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. They should really curl up and die of embarrassment. Banjoboy has had is arse well and truly handed to him and most sentient beings on the forum know it.

[banjowilly]

Garvin said:

You are Grima Wormtongue AICMFP.

Let’s face it, anyone relying on your support on here is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. They should really curl up and die of embarrassment. Banjoboy has had is arse well and truly handed to him and most sentient beings on the forum know it.

There you go again with antagonistic the weird victory claiming & arse obsession. I depend on no one for support thanks, I'm very happy with the obtuse misleading of a very clear point you've repeatedly attempted to send in a direction that suits you. Fair enough, keep on normalising no deal & excusing your friends whose every contribution consists of angry personal abuse & I'll keep on noting the rhetoric.

[Garvin]

banjowilly said:

There you go again with antagonistic the weird victory claiming & arse obsession. I depend on no one for support thanks, I'm very happy with the obtuse misleading of a very clear point you've repeatedly attempted to send in a direction that suits you. Fair enough, keep on normalising no deal & I'll keep on noting the rhetoric.

And you are Don Quixote AICAFP

[Otis Criblecoblis]

DeepEnd said:

banjowilly said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

You are the most appallingly blatant liar

your own idiocy,

you are a liar

you'd fked-up.

He seems more interested in insulting those who disagree with him than understanding the point.

Settling on “a great UK-EU deal” being a key objective and message for the leave campaign seems like potential common ground. All should be able to agree to that.

More interested in not letting a blatant lies go unchecked. For someone who constantly moans about others misleading, your trying to excuse his lies should be beneath you. Sadly you think it better to blindly defend anyone spouting Remain propaganda. It says much about where we are.

[banjowilly]

Garvin said:

And you are Don Quixote AICAFP

And you have clearly never read Don Quixote.

[DeepEnd]

"Settling on “a great UK-EU deal” being a key objective and message for the leave campaign seems like potential common ground."

I thought that might be common ground but can't work out if Garvin and Otis can bring themselves to agree with a poster from "the other side" or whether it is really just all about insults for them.

[anonymous-user]

Otis Criblecoblis said:

More interested in not letting a blatant lies go unchecked. For someone who constantly moans about others misleading, your trying to excuse his lies should be beneath you. Sadly you think it better to blindly defend anyone spouting Remain propaganda. It says much about where we are.

In a sentence what’s the lie ?

If we can identify that we might be able to move forward.

[A Winner Is You]

Sure you will David, sure you will

[Earthdweller]

A Winner Is You said:

Sure you will David, sure you will

I’ve seen him in action .. a wet lettuce would take him out

[AJL308]

A Winner Is You said:

Sure you will David, sure you will

Someone should tell him that taking legal advice is not any sort of "constitutional outrage". Indeed, it is the very definition of constitutional good practice.

[A Winner Is You]

Someone so keen to take legal advice ought to refrain from posting material that might be seen as an incitement to violence..........

[Tuna]

DeepEnd said:

Finally, an admission that no deal was not a leave objective.

The debate really is about whether - having failed to secure the clear objective of a great deal - the govt should crack on despite having failing to secure this key objective, and push through a no deal, or is the failure of that objective so critical to a successful Brexit and protecting the countries best interests that it is sufficient to warrant a rethink over the whole project.

Some leavers think no.

Some remainers think yes.

Personally, I think Boris should be allowed to conclude his negotiations before we start writing his obituary. The members of parliament keen to prevent him even reaching that point before they attempt to depose him are either in possession of particularly reliable crystal balls, or not acting in good faith.

DeepEnd said:

No one knows if the majority has swung as a result of this failure to meet a key objective.

As ever, a misrepresentation. Go to the public and declare Brexit a 'failure' before final terms are even known and ask them what they think? How could that possibly result in an unbiased vote? (hint: sarcasm)

It's almost as if some people are afraid of the final outcome of these negotiations.

[Elysium]

jakesmith said:

Elysium said:

Exactly, we do not know what was in the minds of 17m leave voters.

But .. lets look at the evidence:

1. Agreeing withdrawal terms is the most likely outcome of a decision to leave.

Errr that’s not ‘evidence’, that’s your opinion

Its more than an opinion. Leaving the EU means leaving international treaties. There is a process for doing that, which is set out in Article 50. That process allows two years to agree terms of withdrawal.

So any vote to leave, means we attempt to agree terms of withdrawal and only an utter fkwit would be unable to do that in two years.

Edited by Elysium on Sunday 25th August 23:10

[Tuna]

Elysium said:

So any vote to leave, means we attempt to agree terms of withdrawal and only an utter fkwit would be able to do that in two years.

Think you're missing a negative here whilst calling people fkwits.

[Elysium]

Garvin said:

Elysium said:

So we get to the nub of it. You realise that leave voters have been conned and you don't care.

You should!

I’m not sure they have been conned. If there are leave voters who didn’t examine all the various statements being made at the time, actually believed all that the Leave campaign said and were drawn to a conclusion that a no deal Brexit was not possible then yes, they may possibly feel conned and lied to. That just means they weren’t paying much attention at the time which means they must accept some responsibility for it. However, that still doesn’t mean no deal was not a viable option at the time of the referendum.

Do I care? Not much. There is nothing I can do to change the past, what is done is done. I do not dwell on the past unlike you as that is the road to bitter and twistedness, the road I believe you, and others, are on. Rather, I look to the future and how to make the best of whatever life throws at me.

Should I care? Yes, I care a lot about the current shower of st we have residing in Parliament on all sides of the issue. I can’t do much about it but educate myself such that when I next wield my vote I do it for good reason taking into account my view of the political parties on offer, their leadership, the local candidate, their policies and their track record.

You should bone up on Rheinhold Niebuhr’s approach to life.

I'm not dwelling on the past. Its the future I am bothered about. Perhaps I am still an idealist, but it saddens me to see where we have ended up and where we are potentially headed.

I understand why people want Brexit. I voted against it because I could not see any logical way that we would be better off outside the EU. As I have said before, it is a phyrric victory.

Despite the fact that I did not support it, I realise that a lot of people have become invested in the idea that we have a bright future outside the EU. I think they believed the leave campaign and they still believe in people like Johnson.

Unfortunately, It seems plainly obvious to me that Johnson does not have the interests of those people at heart.

I object to that and will continue to do so.

[Elysium]

Tuna said:

Elysium said:

So any vote to leave, means we attempt to agree terms of withdrawal and only an utter fkwit would be unable to do that in two years.

Think you're missing a negative here whilst calling people fkwits.

Thank you. Iphones eh.

[Elysium]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Elysium said:

Otis Criblecoblis said:

Elysium said:

I can't see any signs of blind rage?

All I see is one person, who says he thought no-deal might happen, but voted to leave anyway. One person, out of 17m, who is happy to assume everyone else felt the same as him, in order to get what he wants.

In which case, any leave voters who made their choice based on the perfectly reasonable assumption that the UK Govt would not be entirely incompetent are st out of luck.

No-deal is defeatist at the best of times, but when its being promoted by the people who told the voters that a deal with be easy, then it's also a lie and a con trick.

Lets try the same simple question with you.
When you went to the polls that day, what ruled no deal out ?

As I have said previously, ruling it out is irrelevant. The issue is that it is not mandated, because voters would reasonable expect Govt to exercise even a tiny degree of competence and because the people now promoting it are the same people who promised it would never happen in 2016.

But you are going to keep ignoring that simple answer and ask the same inane question over and over again in the belief that it constitutes intelligent debate.

Let’s set this out really clearly. In the run-up to the referendum the remain campaign said that securing a deal with the EU would be difficult, time consuming and couldn’t be guaranteed. The leave campaign said that it would be quick and easy and that, in any event, the risks of leaving without a deal were being overstated. It is those who spoke for remain who are being proved right and it is those who voted for remain who are being proved to be the more responsible voters.

I don’t actually blame those who voted leave. There are always people in society who are easily led and the leave campaign did a great job of playing to those people’s fears and emotions. I do entirely blame the liars and charlatans who peddled the untruths. I probably should feel some pleasure that those mendacious and self-interested individuals are now in Government and will now be held to account for their deceits but, in reality, I am more sorrowful that the whole country will suffer - and, as always, the most vulnerable most of all - because these unprincipaled individuals incited the credulous and the scared to burn their own house down.

The point is that the remain campaign were scaremongering. The allegations of Project Fear are not misplaced. I have no love for Cameron and Osborne and it is to my eternal shame that I found myself on the same side as them.

Their claims that we might need to leave with no-deal were exaggerated. We should have been able to agree basic withdrawal terms. We still can and we don't need to leave with no-deal.

[Elysium]

AJL308 said:

Elysium said:

I'm not having a meltdown and I am certainly not 'blinded by ire'.

I post here because I enjoy a good argument, although sadly I do not always get one. Unfortunately, there are a fair number of posters on here who struggle with reasoned debate.

I dont think Brexit will be a disaster, but I can't see where it will bring us any upside either. To me, it seems like an utterly pointless act of self harm. The definition of a phyrric victory. I also agree with your assessment that some will be affected worse than others. In fact, I will also be relatively insulated from the downsides.

My specific beef with no-deal is that it is entirely unnecessary and effectively an admission of failure. Failure to have a vision for what we want from Brexit and confirmation of the incompetency of our political leaders.

I accused you of moaning, because of your apparent delight in the potential misfortune of others. Given that no-deal is a particularly naff way to deliver Brexit a bigger man might have more empathy for those people who struggle to 'get on board'. Crowing at other peoples concern or misfortunate is not a great trait.

It will bring us the benefit of not being part of an organisation which is heading towards being a Federal state the operation of which we will have less and less say over and will eventually subsume the UK so that it ceases to be an independent sovereign nation.

That is why (mainly) I voted Leave.

If the EU is truly become a federalist state, I would want to have some influence over it. That influence is always going to be greater as an insider, than as an outsider reliant on its neighbours goodwill for essential trade.

I don't think we are anywhere close to a real surrender of sovereignty on the part of the UK, or the French or the Germans.

[Tuna]

Elysium said:

If the EU is truly become a federalist state, I would want to have some influence over it. That influence is always going to be greater as an insider, than as an outsider reliant on its neighbours goodwill for essential trade.

Isn't that just as good an argument for becoming the fifty first state of the US, or doing global trade deals?

If the EU is to become a federalist state given the UK's general antipathy to such constructs, it would be pretty clear that our 'influence' has failed at the first hurdle. Watching the behaviour of the EU during these negotiations, it seems the political construct is designed to limit the influence of individual members when it comes to overall direction.