How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 11)

[Vanden Saab]

Elysium said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The majority will decide. If the minority are unhappy, they can complain and campaign as much as they wish.

That’s what democracy is and the idea that a second referendum would be undemocratic is nonsensical. It is a democratic exercise pure and simple.

[C4ME]

Elysium said:

Of course there is an answer to this. If we have a confirmatory vote between no-deal and remain, then we immediately do what the majority want. It it’s no-deal, then we leave on that basis.

Another vote solves everything. It’s simple, logical and democratic.

It is neither simple, logical, nor democratic. And it certainly will not solve everything.

[Elysium]

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

[Vanden Saab]

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

We haven't left yet...So as not leaving is a failure the only option left is to leave....

[Murph7355]

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.
.

Coherent argument for what?

The only incoherence we've been seeing for months (years?) is your continued assertion that a second referendum between no deal and remain (even if those choices made sense) would resolve anything

[Elysium]

Vanden Saab said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

We haven't left yet...So as not leaving is a failure the only option left is to leave....

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

[Elysium]

Murph7355 said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.
.

Coherent argument for what?

The only incoherence we've been seeing for months (years?) is your continued assertion that a second referendum between no deal and remain (even if those choices made sense) would resolve anything

A coherent argument would require you to put together some sort of logic and evidence based response to back up your thinking.

[Jazzy Jag]

Elysium said:

Vanden Saab said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

We haven't left yet...So as not leaving is a failure the only option left is to leave....

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

Or that contrary to all the predictions, voting Leave and triggering A50 didn't cause armageddon, after all.

[Elysium]

Jazzy Jag said:

Elysium said:

Vanden Saab said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

We haven't left yet...So as not leaving is a failure the only option left is to leave....

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

Or that contrary to all the predictions, voting Leave and triggering A50 didn't cause armageddon, after all.

But that is not contrary to all predictions. The leave campaign said it would all be fine. They also said we would do a good deal with the EU and that Brexit would go smoothly.

[anonymous-user]

Elysium said:

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

[Ridgemont]

Elysium said:

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

But... but .. I was promised an immediate recession just in the immediate of a vote to leave.

Anyhoo.

We’re leaving. An obstructionist Parliament have thrown everything in its way to the point where the WA is dead. The only option unless you’ve decided to circumvent national votes is no deal.

[Robertj21a]

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

You sound very desperate and upset. Are you, finally, accepting that we need to just get on with implementing a democratic vote ?

[Jazzy Jag]

Elysium said:

Jazzy Jag said:

Elysium said:

Vanden Saab said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

We haven't left yet...So as not leaving is a failure the only option left is to leave....

We have wasted 3 years on this foolish endeavour. In that time we have achieved absolutely nothing.

Not leaving seems to be going rather well. The economy is in decent shape regardless and most people are getting on wiith their lives. It almost seems that being shackled to the EU is not a problem after all.

Or that contrary to all the predictions, voting Leave and triggering A50 didn't cause armageddon, after all.

But that is not contrary to all predictions. The leave campaign said it would all be fine. They also said we would do a good deal with the EU and that Brexit would go smoothly.

True.

But we never sent a serious negotiator with the intention of leaving, to try and do a deal.

[FiF]

Robertj21a said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

You sound very desperate and upset. Are you, finally, accepting that we need to just get on with implementing a democratic vote ?

The disconnection and inability to see the reality is amazing. Several years now where anyone, be it originally a Leave or Remain voter, who has accepted the referendum decision and tried to work with it, yet has been subjected at best to chilling silence and at times literally a spit in the face and accusation of racism, and now stand accused of minority extremism compared to the intellectually shoddy and often deliberately misleading Remain arguments, often without real compelling points, just never ending negatives.

It's not the optimistic Brexiteers who are irrational

[powerstroke]

Jazzy Jag said:

True.

But we never sent a serious negotiator with the intention of leaving, to try and do a deal.

Exactly , and now we have two people who say they will sort it the remoaners are still upset which
rather blows the we accept we are leaving tosh they spout ..
The message seems to be ,May's war of attrition and appeasement of remainers and the EU is over and we after 3 wasted years mean business !!!
well we can hope can't we ???

[amusingduck]

FiF said:

Robertj21a said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

You sound very desperate and upset. Are you, finally, accepting that we need to just get on with implementing a democratic vote ?

The disconnection and inability to see the reality is amazing. Several years now where anyone, be it originally a Leave or Remain voter, who has accepted the referendum decision and tried to work with it, yet has been subjected at best to chilling silence and at times literally a spit in the face and accusation of racism, and now stand accused of minority extremism compared to the intellectually shoddy and often deliberately misleading Remain arguments, often without real compelling points, just never ending negatives.

It's not the optimistic Brexiteers who are irrational

Article said:

What great cause merits aggravating our divisions and trashing our politics? The EU! Its partisans barely manage to defend or even discuss it.

They really nailed it with that last bit The cheerleaders don't even cheer!

Though, I suppose with the EU there's very little to cheer about

[Elysium]

FiF said:

Robertj21a said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

You sound very desperate and upset. Are you, finally, accepting that we need to just get on with implementing a democratic vote ?

The disconnection and inability to see the reality is amazing. Several years now where anyone, be it originally a Leave or Remain voter, who has accepted the referendum decision and tried to work with it, yet has been subjected at best to chilling silence and at times literally a spit in the face and accusation of racism, and now stand accused of minority extremism compared to the intellectually shoddy and often deliberately misleading Remain arguments, often without real compelling points, just never ending negatives.

It's not the optimistic Brexiteers who are irrational

You entirely miss the point. I am perfectly happy for us to leave the EU in an orderly way, as the majority voted to do in 2016.

The extremist minority are the people who are so fixated on the need to 'get out' by 31st Oct 2019 (a deadline which was ironically set by the EU) that they are willing to support someone who directly threatens our democracy and sovereignty by attempting to frustrate parliaments role as lawmakers.

The idea that 'anyone' who accepted the result has 'literally' suffered silence, been spat at or accused of racism is utter nonsense. I can accept that a few people may have experienced such things, but not everyone.

I actually agree with the author of the article in some ways, but there is a fundamental flaw in his thinking.

Leavers want Brexit as a matter of political ideology. I think that the majority who oppose it do so as a matter of pragmatism. They are not going to defend the EU or make an inspirational case to remain, because they do not see the 'problem' in that way.

I think Brexit is a stupid idea because it will cost us money and we will gain nothing of any value in return. It's that simple.

No-deal Brexit is even stupider, because there is absolutely no need for it and it is not mandated by the 2016 vote. This panic to leave at all costs by the EU's latest deadline, at the clear expense of our democracy, which leavers pretend to value, is the problem.

It is an extremist approach.

[Elysium]

powerstroke said:

Jazzy Jag said:

True.

But we never sent a serious negotiator with the intention of leaving, to try and do a deal.

Exactly , and now we have two people who say they will sort it the remoaners are still upset which
rather blows the we accept we are leaving tosh they spout ..
The message seems to be ,May's war of attrition and appeasement of remainers and the EU is over and we after 3 wasted years mean business !!!
well we can hope can't we ???

Yes - we can hope. I saw this article this morning, which suggests that the EU may be searching for compromise:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/9522008/boris...

Retention of the divorce payment until an acceptable FTA is agreed sounds like a good idea, but I have no idea if it is a serious proposition or something the Sun have made up.

What bothers me is that Johnson is trying the same approach that led to May's failure, threatening no deal in the hope that the EU comes up with something better. It's not a sensible or effective way to negotiate and we are STILL not agreed on terms we would actually accept. On that basis, given May's experience, I think it will fail. That means our only option is to leave with no-deal, which is Brexit on the worst terms possible.

I see the current situation as an insult to all referendum voters in 2016.

[Robertj21a]

Elysium said:

You entirely miss the point. I am perfectly happy for us to leave the EU in an orderly way, as the majority voted to do in 2016.

The extremist minority are the people who are so fixated on the need to 'get out' by 31st Oct 2019 (a deadline which was ironically set by the EU) that they are willing to support someone who directly threatens our democracy and sovereignty by attempting to frustrate parliaments role as lawmakers.

The idea that 'anyone' who accepted the result has 'literally' suffered silence, been spat at or accused of racism is utter nonsense. I can accept that a few people may have experienced such things, but not everyone.

I actually agree with the author of the article in some ways, but there is a fundamental flaw in his thinking.

Leavers want Brexit as a matter of political ideology. I think that the majority who oppose it do so as a matter of pragmatism. They are not going to defend the EU or make an inspirational case to remain, because they do not see the 'problem' in that way.

I think Brexit is a stupid idea because it will cost us money and we will gain nothing of any value in return. It's that simple.

No-deal Brexit is even stupider, because there is absolutely no need for it and it is not mandated by the 2016 vote. This panic to leave at all costs by the EU's latest deadline, at the clear expense of our democracy, which leavers pretend to value, is the problem.

It is an extremist approach.

People take an extremist approach when other avenues are blocked. The fact that any such blockage is encouraged by those with a vested interest in the status quo just ensures greater extremism.

[FiF]

Elysium said:

FiF said:

Robertj21a said:

Elysium said:

So no coherent argument from leavers.

It’s a sad and sorry moment for our country that a vocal minority of extremists are now willing to support an unprincipled Tory leaders attempts to circumvent parliamentary democracy, to force through a damaging and chaotic version of Brexit, in direct contradiction of everything that leave campaigners fought for in 2016.

Brexit is a failure. The conservatives screwed it up. Boris and his stupid ‘do or die’ no deal Brexit will make it even worse.

I wonder how many mistakes will be required before we start to learn from them.

You sound very desperate and upset. Are you, finally, accepting that we need to just get on with implementing a democratic vote ?

The disconnection and inability to see the reality is amazing. Several years now where anyone, be it originally a Leave or Remain voter, who has accepted the referendum decision and tried to work with it, yet has been subjected at best to chilling silence and at times literally a spit in the face and accusation of racism, and now stand accused of minority extremism compared to the intellectually shoddy and often deliberately misleading Remain arguments, often without real compelling points, just never ending negatives.

It's not the optimistic Brexiteers who are irrational

You entirely miss the point. I am perfectly happy for us to leave the EU in an orderly way, as the majority voted to do in 2016.

The extremist minority are the people who are so fixated on the need to 'get out' by 31st Oct 2019 (a deadline which was ironically set by the EU) that they are willing to support someone who directly threatens our democracy and sovereignty by attempting to frustrate parliaments role as lawmakers.

The idea that 'anyone' who accepted the result has 'literally' suffered silence, been spat at or accused of racism is utter nonsense. I can accept that a few people may have experienced such things, but not everyone.

I actually agree with the author of the article in some ways, but there is a fundamental flaw in his thinking.

Leavers want Brexit as a matter of political ideology. I think that the majority who oppose it do so as a matter of pragmatism. They are not going to defend the EU or make an inspirational case to remain, because they do not see the 'problem' in that way.

I think Brexit is a stupid idea because it will cost us money and we will gain nothing of any value in return. It's that simple.

No-deal Brexit is even stupider, because there is absolutely no need for it and it is not mandated by the 2016 vote. This panic to leave at all costs by the EU's latest deadline, at the clear expense of our democracy, which leavers pretend to value, is the problem.

It is an extremist approach.

As always it's you who miss the point. Many now refuse to engage because of having suffered exactly those reactions in one form or another along the spectrum of responses, they are not extremists, but folks who no longer have time for the big baby foot stamping.

For the 805th time (joke) you pick up either directly or obliquely on the intention / wish of Leave to negotiate a deal before triggering A50 notice, ignoring the primary reason why things in the end didn't happen exactly that way. That's despite other parts of Leave distinctly examining the possibility of No Deal scenarios and taking that into the decision making process. Then you try and claim there is no mandate in the vote for no deal.

Yet you are conveniently also ignoring the mandate of the vote following the absolute promise by many who see themselves as the great and good to "respect and implement the result." Things said when they expected to win, but immediately rejected when they didn't get that result and went into big baby foot stamp mode. If there is no mandate for no deal then only God knows what the mandate for the intellectually bereft arguments and destructive positions that you and your fellow travellers are putting up.