Boris Johnson- Prime Minister
Discussion
Robertj21a said:
Oilchange said:
vonuber said:
So you are saying education is a waste of time unless it 'improves your chances in the real world'?
Mate don't put words into peoples mouths, you have no idea how annoying that is!andy_s said:
Vanden Saab said:
tangerine_sedge said:
No it isn't it just supports the view that its someone else's fault.
Students get little assistance, its criminal that someone intending to better themselves and the country (graduates are more likely to be tax contributors than takers) get little assistance whilst the feckless get benefits for sitting at home pushing out more dependents.
The 'left behind' are the people who are least capable to change in a globalised world, I.e. the worst educated, and the people most unwilling to change. The UK cannot stop globalisation, and the standard of living differential means we cannot compete directly with less developed nations for those unskilled jobs. In fact its pointless to do so as automation will destroy those jobs anyway in the medium term.
The only option is to have an educated workforce doing jobs that are difficult to automate. That way we will not he competing directly with places like Asia and in the near future Africa. In principal we need MORE well educated aspirant middle classes and fewer people who can be 'left behind'.
Of course, politically it's easier to get poorly educated and lazy people to vote for you by blaming someone else, in this case the nebulous group labeled the 'elites'. Fixing the actual problem is much more difficult.
The question is what we do with those people who are either unwilling or unable to change? I suggest Soylent Green
Like nurses and builders … those who did apprenticeships or vocational courses. Those lazy people. The ones who look after you when you are ill or keep your house from falling down... Lets educate them, insist they get a degree to wipe patients arses or dig holes... genius...Students get little assistance, its criminal that someone intending to better themselves and the country (graduates are more likely to be tax contributors than takers) get little assistance whilst the feckless get benefits for sitting at home pushing out more dependents.
The 'left behind' are the people who are least capable to change in a globalised world, I.e. the worst educated, and the people most unwilling to change. The UK cannot stop globalisation, and the standard of living differential means we cannot compete directly with less developed nations for those unskilled jobs. In fact its pointless to do so as automation will destroy those jobs anyway in the medium term.
The only option is to have an educated workforce doing jobs that are difficult to automate. That way we will not he competing directly with places like Asia and in the near future Africa. In principal we need MORE well educated aspirant middle classes and fewer people who can be 'left behind'.
Of course, politically it's easier to get poorly educated and lazy people to vote for you by blaming someone else, in this case the nebulous group labeled the 'elites'. Fixing the actual problem is much more difficult.
The question is what we do with those people who are either unwilling or unable to change? I suggest Soylent Green
AFAIU nurses now need a degree - another pointless burden for them and us.
Anybody who wishes to 'better themselves', whether by doing a degree, doing nursing training or taking vocational courses to become a tradesman are all doing the right thing for UK PLC. In all these cases there should be financial assistance.
My target is primarily the ones who can't be bothered, or don't reskill, or let their skills stagnate.
The left behind are not responsible for being left behind (industries change, the world is dynamic), but they are responsible for remaining there. People are entirely responsible for their own careers, nobody owes anyone a living. We do not live in a socialist system of 'jobs for all' regardless of skills or experience.
If left handed basket weaving is no longer required, then reskill and retrain as something else. If your geographic area no longer requires your skills but they are needed elsewhere then get on your bike!
Don't blame those people who can change and adapt for your own failure to adapt to global changes!
There seems to be an awful lot of right wing brexit party types on here complaining about getting ignored and left behind.
Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
El stovey said:
There seems to be an awful lot of right wing brexit party types on here complaining about getting ignored and left behind.
Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
I was musing on this recently. When I first joined this site it was quite traditionally, Thatcherite right-wing. The general view was that you got back what you put in and if you weren't happy you had to 'get on your bike' and make your lot better. Any suggestion that some people were simply 'left behind' and that it was circumstances rather than lack of 'gumption' that created their situations would be shouted down vehemently. It seems that the view has shifted quite considerably of late and that blaming the 'elites' is perfectly acceptable. Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
El stovey said:
There seems to be an awful lot of right wing brexit party types on here complaining about getting ignored and left behind
An awful lot? Who are you including in that ‘lot’?Seems to me that there are certain Remainers that seem to want to pretend that anyone who voted for Brexit must be in this situation, but I don’t think that’s accurate.
golf_addict said:
El stovey said:
There seems to be an awful lot of right wing brexit party types on here complaining about getting ignored and left behind
An awful lot? Who are you including in that ‘lot’?Seems to me that there are certain Remainers that seem to want to pretend that anyone who voted for Brexit must be in this situation, but I don’t think that’s accurate.
loafer123 said:
I think that recent politics has made people more cynical, and you can’t blame them.
Politicians talk a good game about respecting the result of the referendum whilst doing everything they can to overturn it.
We don't have many good politicians, that's true. But I think perception has been ramped up far beyond truth by drip-fed, targeted 'news' via social media.Politicians talk a good game about respecting the result of the referendum whilst doing everything they can to overturn it.
TTwiggy said:
El stovey said:
There seems to be an awful lot of right wing brexit party types on here complaining about getting ignored and left behind.
Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
I was musing on this recently. When I first joined this site it was quite traditionally, Thatcherite right-wing. The general view was that you got back what you put in and if you weren't happy you had to 'get on your bike' and make your lot better. Any suggestion that some people were simply 'left behind' and that it was circumstances rather than lack of 'gumption' that created their situations would be shouted down vehemently. It seems that the view has shifted quite considerably of late and that blaming the 'elites' is perfectly acceptable. Seems like on each end of the political spectrum we have totalitarian regimes but we also have people expecting the government to make up for their lack of happiness and success and poor life choices.
Perhaps that’s what attracts these people to the extremes. If you’re doing well and content, you’re unlikely to want extremists and radical change?
John145 said:
My opinion is that everyone blames the person complaining for not sorting things out and making their life better, but at the end of the day we're always going to need orderlies, cleaners, labourers, etc and I don't see why we should tell them to get a proper job when someone else would just have to replace them. I'd rather see a more balanced system where anyone working hard is rewarded enough to have a decent life.
I think we'd all like that, but I don't know how you achieve it. What would you pay a cleaner so that they can have a 'decent' life? What effect would any pay-hike at the lower level have on the 'professional' jobs? What would the knock-on be to 'top paid' jobs? Where would this take inflation, and how long would it be until you were back at square one?
Actually your post is a great example of what I was talking about above. Ideas like this would have been dismissed as pure Communism by NP&E circa 2009.
TTwiggy said:
I was musing on this recently. When I first joined this site it was quite traditionally, Thatcherite right-wing. The general view was that you got back what you put in and if you weren't happy you had to 'get on your bike' and make your lot better. Any suggestion that some people were simply 'left behind' and that it was circumstances rather than lack of 'gumption' that created their situations would be shouted down vehemently. It seems that the view has shifted quite considerably of late and that blaming the 'elites' is perfectly acceptable.
I agree but now it’s liberal elites that are to blame with their multiculturalism and telling others how to live.When you joined it was the rich conservatives to blame for closing down traditional employers and expecting miners and car plant workers to retrain and become stockbrokers.
The reality is of course that in Britain despite having free education and healthcare and a thriving economy, poor labour supporting areas are still full of poor people and poor brexit party areas will continue to be poor (if they ever win a seat) and we can’t blame or expect the government to do anything much unless we take and make chances ourselves. As it’s always been.
Nickgnome said:
jsf said:
S1KRR said:
IMO The "worry" experienced by those lads is 100% due to the messing around over Brexit since the referendum. What every business wants is certainty. They can work with Leaving or Remaining. The actual difference wont be THAT big IMO. Not pestilence and plague. And not free cookies for everyone.
But they just need to know ASAP which it is!
TBH I'm at the point where I'm sick of hearing the whining from the Remoan side (not remainers) I just want something to happen. Leave (my preference) but if we Remain then we go exactly back to where we were prior to the referendum. And then the UK Government can set to work on "reforming" the un-reformable! At least that wont be on the TV every bleeding hour!
If you think remaining would be the end of it, you are very much mistaken. UK politics would be unrecognisable post that.But they just need to know ASAP which it is!
TBH I'm at the point where I'm sick of hearing the whining from the Remoan side (not remainers) I just want something to happen. Leave (my preference) but if we Remain then we go exactly back to where we were prior to the referendum. And then the UK Government can set to work on "reforming" the un-reformable! At least that wont be on the TV every bleeding hour!
Remaining has lots of benefits - not least of which the nation will no longer have to solve all these problems that Brexit Errs have no solution to. NI border - no answer. Lack of medicine / food - Grayling ghost ferries / piss poor answer. Etc.
Imagine no longer having to hear muppets moan on about how these things are so easy to solve whilst simultaneously having absolutely no idea themselves how to do it. Bliss!
What will happen that is so awful if the will of the people changed to decide to remain?
Edited by DeepEnd on Monday 19th August 16:54
TTwiggy said:
I think we'd all like that, but I don't know how you achieve it.
What would you pay a cleaner so that they can have a 'decent' life? What effect would any pay-hike at the lower level have on the 'professional' jobs? What would the knock-on be to 'top paid' jobs? Where would this take inflation, and how long would it be until you were back at square one?
Actually your post is a great example of what I was talking about above. Ideas like this would have been dismissed as pure Communism by NP&E circa 2009.
Yup. What we might increasingly need as we move into a more autonomous workplace will be some kind of universal basic income system.What would you pay a cleaner so that they can have a 'decent' life? What effect would any pay-hike at the lower level have on the 'professional' jobs? What would the knock-on be to 'top paid' jobs? Where would this take inflation, and how long would it be until you were back at square one?
Actually your post is a great example of what I was talking about above. Ideas like this would have been dismissed as pure Communism by NP&E circa 2009.
TTwiggy said:
I think we'd all like that, but I don't know how you achieve it.
What would you pay a cleaner so that they can have a 'decent' life? What effect would any pay-hike at the lower level have on the 'professional' jobs? What would the knock-on be to 'top paid' jobs? Where would this take inflation, and how long would it be until you were back at square one?
Actually your post is a great example of what I was talking about above. Ideas like this would have been dismissed as pure Communism by NP&E circa 2009.
People have called me a Commie on here lol. What would you pay a cleaner so that they can have a 'decent' life? What effect would any pay-hike at the lower level have on the 'professional' jobs? What would the knock-on be to 'top paid' jobs? Where would this take inflation, and how long would it be until you were back at square one?
Actually your post is a great example of what I was talking about above. Ideas like this would have been dismissed as pure Communism by NP&E circa 2009.
It starts with leaving the EU. Until we can control the amount of unskilled labour we can only legislate higher and higher minimum wages but the problem of this is that why employ a 18-20 year old newbie when you can get someone 30+ highly experienced in the role for the same money?
I don't believe it is beyond the whit of man to narrow the gap without going full Stalin
El stovey said:
Yup. What we might increasingly need as we move into a more autonomous workplace will be some kind of universal basic income system.
I'm very much in favour of this. It's the most egalitarian form of social care and removes any stigma around being 'out of work' (for whatever reason).John145 said:
People have called me a Commie on here lol.
It starts with leaving the EU. Until we can control the amount of unskilled labour we can only legislate higher and higher minimum wages but the problem of this is that why employ a 18-20 year old newbie when you can get someone 30+ highly experienced in the role for the same money?
I don't believe it is beyond the whit of man to narrow the gap without going full Stalin
I'd love to see it happen. But if we effectively create an island nation where cleaners earn £50k PA, where is the money to pay them going to come from? Equally, if we bring in a wage-cap for top earners they will simply leave.It starts with leaving the EU. Until we can control the amount of unskilled labour we can only legislate higher and higher minimum wages but the problem of this is that why employ a 18-20 year old newbie when you can get someone 30+ highly experienced in the role for the same money?
I don't believe it is beyond the whit of man to narrow the gap without going full Stalin
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