Boris Johnson- Prime Minister
Discussion
Vanden Saab said:
Because dealing with every little detail herself worked so well for Mrs May...
Exactly this. Politics has been infested by “management” for a long time. There is no vision, the belief is that if they manage competently, don’t f
k up too badly, then they’ll be popular. The last politician with leadership skills and an ability to set out a vision was M. Thatcher, and to a lesser extent T. Blair.Leadership is about direction setting, not being in the details all the time. You lay out a plan, you make sure that plan is achievable, and then you lead a team to execute it. If you have a habit of creating unachievable plans, then you lose. Leading a team is not just beating them with a stick to do it - it’s explaining, listening, and occasionally plunging into the detail to help them overcome barriers.
I can use a Brexit example. I had dinner with a mate who is a civil servant a while back. He was bemoaning that Brexit would lead to all aeroplanes being grounded due to certification issues. It wasn’t hard to lead him through a scenario where 3 (perfectly achievable) things had to be done and it would be fine, But if your leadership are running around with their hair on fire yelling “we’re doomed”, how are you going to deal with the detail?
At the moment he is leading. This is good. The crunchy bit will come when the people who work for him deliver on the details.
Evercross said:
alfaman said:
B210bandit said:
Not that bright, but he's a product of the English public school system which prizes hubris above all else. It's a fine moment when you realise all those twits with private education, their silly accents and their skills in social exclusion, aren't all that bright. That includes about half of the legal profession I work in. Filled to the brim with these Anglo idiots and their ridiculous voices.
Oooo nasty !so everyone who spent time at a public school is not that bright?
and ‘Anglos’ are idiots?
riiigggghhhhttttt
and you claim to have razor sharp critical reasoning ability ?
Vanden Saab said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Blue62 said:
pgh said:
So Boris shoots for the moon with an opening gambit on selling services to the US. Criticised for asking the ‘impossible’ (although Geiko manage a national insurance business extremely well, that sneaky Mr Buffet). Presumably if he didn’t ask for national access he’d also be being criticised for a lack of ambition.
Surely more honest just to state that whatever he does, you won’t be happy?
I’d be happier if he engaged in fewer sound bites and a bit more detail. Telling his opponents to stop being negative and responding to questions about the back stop with phrases like ‘where there’s a will there’s a way’ may cut it with Brenda from Eastbourne but doesn’t fill me with confidence that he has anything up his sleeve beyond a snap election. Surely more honest just to state that whatever he does, you won’t be happy?
It’s clearly working with large swathes of the electorate though, which is worrying and points to the superficial nature of politics these days.
That’s not always a bad thing - someone has to set a broad vision and someone has to sell it on the doorstep but, when it comes to complex negotiations and aligning multiple interests around a desired outcome, mastery of detail is all. This is why Thatcher, Major and Blair (& the ministerial team’s they built around them) were so successful. This is also why I don’t have high hopes for a good outcome from this Govt
B210bandit said:
Yeah, see the Anglo sensitivity on display above. Febrile culture at the moment-fair enough, backs are against the wall. My old man was English and raised in public schools at Dockenfield and Pangbourne. English is my first language and I'm from a former British colony. I know this culture 'cos I'm part of it. And yeah, self-loathing is an intimate part of being English
Your comments are racist.rxe said:
Vanden Saab said:
Because dealing with every little detail herself worked so well for Mrs May...
Exactly this. Politics has been infested by “management” for a long time. There is no vision, the belief is that if they manage competently, don’t fk up too badly, then they’ll be popular. The last politician with leadership skills and an ability to set out a vision was M. Thatcher, and to a lesser extent T. Blair.Leadership is about direction setting, not being in the details all the time. You lay out a plan, you make sure that plan is achievable, and then you lead a team to execute it. If you have a habit of creating unachievable plans, then you lose. Leading a team is not just beating them with a stick to do it - it’s explaining, listening, and occasionally plunging into the detail to help them overcome barriers.
I can use a Brexit example. I had dinner with a mate who is a civil servant a while back. He was bemoaning that Brexit would lead to all aeroplanes being grounded due to certification issues. It wasn’t hard to lead him through a scenario where 3 (perfectly achievable) things had to be done and it would be fine, But if your leadership are running around with their hair on fire yelling “we’re doomed”, how are you going to deal with the detail?
At the moment he is leading. This is good. The crunchy bit will come when the people who work for him deliver on the details.
B210bandit said:
Yeah, see the Anglo sensitivity on display above. Febrile culture at the moment-fair enough, backs are against the wall. My old man was English and raised in public schools at Dockenfield and Pangbourne. English is my first language and I'm from a former British colony. I know this culture 'cos I'm part of it. And yeah, self-loathing is an intimate part of being English
You were always the racist weren't you Fluffyrxe said:
Vanden Saab said:
Because dealing with every little detail herself worked so well for Mrs May...
Exactly this. Politics has been infested by “management” for a long time. There is no vision, the belief is that if they manage competently, don’t fk up too badly, then they’ll be popular. The last politician with leadership skills and an ability to set out a vision was M. Thatcher, and to a lesser extent T. Blair.Leadership is about direction setting, not being in the details all the time. You lay out a plan, you make sure that plan is achievable, and then you lead a team to execute it. If you have a habit of creating unachievable plans, then you lose. Leading a team is not just beating them with a stick to do it - it’s explaining, listening, and occasionally plunging into the detail to help them overcome barriers.
I can use a Brexit example. I had dinner with a mate who is a civil servant a while back. He was bemoaning that Brexit would lead to all aeroplanes being grounded due to certification issues. It wasn’t hard to lead him through a scenario where 3 (perfectly achievable) things had to be done and it would be fine, But if your leadership are running around with their hair on fire yelling “we’re doomed”, how are you going to deal with the detail?
At the moment he is leading. This is good. The crunchy bit will come when the people who work for him deliver on the details.
In something as complex as politics a leader needs to set out a credible political vision and a strategy to achieve it (Johnson is yet to do either, by he way) and then you need to have the intellectual and leadership heft to work it through into implementation with your team when multiple things around you are distracting you and trying to blow you off course. Thatcher, for all her faults, did it as did Blair for all his. Major was also surprisingly good at it and Cameron wasn’t bad, certainly at the first part.
Brown and May were appalling at it, as was Callaghan a generation ago.
I think that, fundamentally, you underestimate how complex and challenging politics actually is. In fairness to you, most do.
ClaphamGT3 said:
B210bandit said:
Not that bright, but he's a product of the English public school system which prizes hubris above all else. It's a fine moment when you realise all those twits with private education, their silly accents and their skills in social exclusion, aren't all that bright. That includes about half of the legal profession I work in. Filled to the brim with these Anglo idiots and their ridiculous voices.
Unlike the Scottish public school system that has given us such political superstars as Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and the Prince of Wales.....alfaman said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
B210bandit said:
Not that bright, but he's a product of the English public school system which prizes hubris above all else. It's a fine moment when you realise all those twits with private education, their silly accents and their skills in social exclusion, aren't all that bright. That includes about half of the legal profession I work in. Filled to the brim with these Anglo idiots and their ridiculous voices.
Unlike the Scottish public school system that has given us such political superstars as Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and the Prince of Wales.....rxe said:
Exactly this. Politics has been infested by “management” for a long time. There is no vision, the belief is that if they manage competently, don’t fk up too badly, then they’ll be popular. The last politician with leadership skills and an ability to set out a vision was M. Thatcher, and to a lesser extent T. Blair.
Leadership is about direction setting, not being in the details all the time. You lay out a plan, you make sure that plan is achievable, and then you lead a team to execute it. If you have a habit of creating unachievable plans, then you lose. Leading a team is not just beating them with a stick to do it - it’s explaining, listening, and occasionally plunging into the detail to help them overcome barriers.
I can use a Brexit example. I had dinner with a mate who is a civil servant a while back. He was bemoaning that Brexit would lead to all aeroplanes being grounded due to certification issues. It wasn’t hard to lead him through a scenario where 3 (perfectly achievable) things had to be done and it would be fine, But if your leadership are running around with their hair on fire yelling “we’re doomed”, how are you going to deal with the detail?
At the moment he is leading. This is good. The crunchy bit will come when the people who work for him deliver on the details.
Spot onk up too badly, then they’ll be popular. The last politician with leadership skills and an ability to set out a vision was M. Thatcher, and to a lesser extent T. Blair.Leadership is about direction setting, not being in the details all the time. You lay out a plan, you make sure that plan is achievable, and then you lead a team to execute it. If you have a habit of creating unachievable plans, then you lose. Leading a team is not just beating them with a stick to do it - it’s explaining, listening, and occasionally plunging into the detail to help them overcome barriers.
I can use a Brexit example. I had dinner with a mate who is a civil servant a while back. He was bemoaning that Brexit would lead to all aeroplanes being grounded due to certification issues. It wasn’t hard to lead him through a scenario where 3 (perfectly achievable) things had to be done and it would be fine, But if your leadership are running around with their hair on fire yelling “we’re doomed”, how are you going to deal with the detail?
At the moment he is leading. This is good. The crunchy bit will come when the people who work for him deliver on the details.
ClaphamGT3 said:
And there is my point. Theresa May did not master detail; she was overwhelmed by it
Not very often I agree with you, but that is spot on too. In addition she made herself far too available to the media, and at the beck and call of any jobsworth from the EU that demanded her presence at a meeting at 5 minute's notice in Brussels, or Paris, or Strasbourg, or wherever else.It was noticeable that Macron invited Boris for talks within 24 hours of his ascendancy, and Boris made him wait for a month. It was also noticeable that being represented by an empty pedestal at televised leadership debates did Boris' chances no harm whatsoever.
techguyone said:
Fantastic post and a great example of how leadership works if done correctly, as someone earlier said being a micro manager didn't really work out too well for May did it. I don't know why people in persist in thinking the PM is going to roll his sleeves up and do all the donkey work solo, then live or die by the results. No- one in any business bigger than a man or a dog does this successfully. It is not how leadership works.
I'm not sure what your definition of leadership is but think your analysis is way too simplistic. May was not a micro manager from everything I have read, she was a ditherer who struggled to make decisions with an endless need for information and detail to the point of paralysis, micro management is something else entirely. I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
Blue62 said:
techguyone said:
Fantastic post and a great example of how leadership works if done correctly, as someone earlier said being a micro manager didn't really work out too well for May did it. I don't know why people in persist in thinking the PM is going to roll his sleeves up and do all the donkey work solo, then live or die by the results. No- one in any business bigger than a man or a dog does this successfully. It is not how leadership works.
I'm not sure what your definition of leadership is but think your analysis is way too simplistic. May was not a micro manager from everything I have read, she was a ditherer who struggled to make decisions with an endless need for information and detail to the point of paralysis, micro management is something else entirely. I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
Blue62 said:
I'm not sure what your definition of leadership is but think your analysis is way too simplistic. May was not a micro manager from everything I have read, she was a ditherer who struggled to make decisions with an endless need for information and detail to the point of paralysis, micro management is something else entirely.
I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
Someone like Boris would be a nightmare as an employee, so its no surprise previous employers found him difficult. I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
jsf said:
Blue62 said:
I'm not sure what your definition of leadership is but think your analysis is way too simplistic. May was not a micro manager from everything I have read, she was a ditherer who struggled to make decisions with an endless need for information and detail to the point of paralysis, micro management is something else entirely.
I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
Someone like Boris would be a nightmare as an employee, so its no surprise previous employers found him difficult. I accept that Boris is a refreshing change and I don't doubt his intellect, or his ability to charm, but (putting his moral's conveniently to one side) he is not a leader in the sense that Thatcher was and potentially not a leader at all. She knew her subject and on that basis could usually stand her ground, Boris is the polar opposite, he shoots from the hip and wings it (there's plenty of evidence if you google Boris gaffes) and that is not, in my view, leadership, he's a good salesman but he's not Chairman material and there are an unnerving number of former colleagues and employers who would second that view.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Blue62 is correct. He just about kept the wheels on the wagon at City Hall because Ed Lister was a very good Chief of staff and his deputy mayoral team were for the most part pretty strong - certainly Isobel Deterling and Rick Blakeway who I dealt with most. They spent a lot of time being pretty exasperated by Johnson
Lots of employees in successful businesses spend their time pretty exasperated by their boss.jsf said:
Lots of employees in successful businesses spend their time pretty exasperated by their boss.
I know you're simply trying to defend a position, but you can only get away with anecdotal nonsense for so long! There may be some examples of successful businesses being run by freewheeling loons who 'exasperate' their employees, but I don't see it as a blueprint for success and you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, other than a one eyed Borisite, to agree with you. Good leaders know their subject, when necessary take calculated risks (not punts) and park their ego's at the gate. There is a worrying trail of gaffes behind him all pointing to the same thing; that he is taking a flyer. I think that when the powers that be decide they've had enough of him he will be hung out to dry and hopefully that day won't be too far off.
Blue62 said:
I know you're simply trying to defend a position, but you can only get away with anecdotal nonsense for so long! There may be some examples of successful businesses being run by freewheeling loons who 'exasperate' their employees, but I don't see it as a blueprint for success and you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, other than a one eyed Borisite, to agree with you.
Good leaders know their subject, when necessary take calculated risks (not punts) and park their ego's at the gate. There is a worrying trail of gaffes behind him all pointing to the same thing; that he is taking a flyer. I think that when the powers that be decide they've had enough of him he will be hung out to dry and hopefully that day won't be too far off.
Would you rather we had May as PM?Good leaders know their subject, when necessary take calculated risks (not punts) and park their ego's at the gate. There is a worrying trail of gaffes behind him all pointing to the same thing; that he is taking a flyer. I think that when the powers that be decide they've had enough of him he will be hung out to dry and hopefully that day won't be too far off.
chrispmartha said:
Nope, by the democratic powers of Brexit, if BJ says they export pork pies then they surely must export pork pies.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff