Police Officer killed on duty
Discussion
stevemcs said:
Put them in the military and let them deal with them, I don't know why but I always feel our police never receive any respect, if you o to Spain you never get the feeling you would intimidate the national police.
Comments like this really annoy me. Our military is a highly professional fighting force and these people deserve no place in it. Our military aren’t some form of rehabilitation service for scumbags, they are already stretched without having to deal with societies lowest. Assuming by military you mean the infantry believing that’s where they should go, do you really want to give these idiots a gun and expect them to follow orders when they haven’t managed to be responsible for themselves in the past?
CAPP0 said:
Brooking10 said:
And what laws aren’t they subject to ?
I've recently provided my MP, at his request, with a list of the crimes known (as in seen and recorded by residents) committed by those known as travellers in our fairly small village. The bulleted list runs to almost a full side of A4.Whilst this case may be dealt with using the full force of the law, regardless of which societal group the perpetrators belong to, it is a fact that the constant ability of travellers to live almost exclusively outside the law needs addressing at a root and branch level. We had a senior police officer (Chief Inspector, I think) address the village recently and it was clear that he had not the first idea about the level of traveller crime being committed; largely, I suspect, because his officers never, ever intervene, at least not in our village.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 16th August 23:06
The point I was trying to make is that nobody is immune from the law, the issue is more about why / how it is difficult to prosecute that law in certain instances. La Liga and Red 4 have given some insight into that earlier in the thread.
Your story is perhaps a microcosm of the above given that it suggests junior officers not intervening for reasons undetermined as opposed to senior level lawmakers/upholders affording some kind of mythical protection to travellers.
mac96 said:
Brooking10 said:
La Liga said:
Brooking10 said:
I assume start the reason Police don't investigate gypsy related crime is largely because of low manpower allied to low probability of securing convictions versus their target driven politically decided targets not because of some concerted campaign about "rights".
They're the most disproportionately over-represented group in prison. Not sure where 'don't investigate gypsy related crime' comes from given that.
I had assume that stuff like tax investigations, B&E on unused land etc was simply too difficult / time consuming to secure convictions on.
Your stat though further underlines the point that whilst it makes for good frothing the "they're protected by do gooders" is patently b
ks.And there are other factors- perhaps they are less likely to pay fines/comply with non custodial punishments, so more likely to end up in prison?
Not meant to be a dig- I am genuinely curious.
Even then there are the issues with recorded crime.
I expect it's a reflection of them committing a disproportionate amount of crime, just as a disproportionate number of black males within the criminal justice system is a reflection of black males committing a disproportionate amount of crime.
In the main I raise that point is when the keyboard warriors, whose confrontational experience probably consists of angry emails, write things like "the police are scared of them" etc.
rxe said:
Brooking10 said:
I fully appreciate that situation and the attendant frustration.
The point I was trying to make is that nobody is immune from the law, the issue is more about why / how it is difficult to prosecute that law in certain instances. La Liga and Red 4 have given some insight into that earlier in the thread.
Your story is perhaps a microcosm of the above given that it suggests junior officers not intervening for reasons undetermined as opposed to senior level lawmakers/upholders affording some kind of mythical protection to travellers.
They are effectively immune.The point I was trying to make is that nobody is immune from the law, the issue is more about why / how it is difficult to prosecute that law in certain instances. La Liga and Red 4 have given some insight into that earlier in the thread.
Your story is perhaps a microcosm of the above given that it suggests junior officers not intervening for reasons undetermined as opposed to senior level lawmakers/upholders affording some kind of mythical protection to travellers.
Say you needed a digger, a nice kubota 3 tonne. Being a law abiding chap, you’d go to the local hire place and get one. Now imagine if one day on the way back from the office you went a bit Michael Douglas in Falling Down. You drive to my neighbours farm, break into a barn and steal his. Somehow you get it home. Unfortunately for you it has a tracker bleeping away, and its really easy to spot a 3 tonne digger.
So, do you expect the police to say:
1) Ok, Brooking, you’re nicked, hand the digger over?
2) Ah, Brooking, um, yeah, do you mind if we have a look at that digger, oh you’re busy, if we come back in a week would that be OK? Hmmm, sure. <Comes back in a week>. Oh, most of the digger has gone, do you have any idea where that chassis came from that matches a stolen digger? No idea? OK, have a nice day!
Because (2) is actually what happened to my neighbour. We could actually f
king see the digger with the naked eye, in the middle of a load of caravans, and the police wouldn’t do a damn thing.Normal citizens don’t nick things and expect to get away with it. The sort of activity they were up to happens every single bloody night round here, the police don’t care (here’s a crime number for the insurance). The only reason anyone is talking about this burglary is that the cheeky chappies actually managed to kill a policeman this time. If they’d killed the farmer, it would be “man dies in burglary” on page 2. On the down side, I’ll be amazed if any of them get more than 10 years. So bleeding heart will claim that it was the other car that killed the poor guy, the driver had no idea he was on the car, and everyone else was just picking flowers.
There is no immunity from the law (diplomats aside ).
I struggle to believe that anywhere in UK there is any directive that states travellers should be afforded a free pass because they are travellers.
It would seem though that that is effectively happening.
The issue therefore is what are the underlying problems causing this - Too little manpower ? Too much bureaucracy ? Inability to secure evidence/convictions ?
I don't know but it is clearly a problem based on your example.
As I say though despite what some are implying I do not believe it is some human rights lead "let them be" agenda.
We'd do far better to try and understand those root causes than froth about nonexistent imagined minority protectionism..
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 17th August 10:03
red_slr said:
What it will take is for people to stop employing these individuals.
A well respected landscaper turns up to quote a job and says £1000 and can start in 3 weeks.
Travellers turn up quote £500 and will start NOW.
It's half the price for a reason. They pay no tax they dump the waste they have no insurance they will use stolen materials and if there is a problem later they will be nowhere to be seen.
Yet time and time again people employ them because they are cheap.
Stop it.
This is a very good point.A well respected landscaper turns up to quote a job and says £1000 and can start in 3 weeks.
Travellers turn up quote £500 and will start NOW.
It's half the price for a reason. They pay no tax they dump the waste they have no insurance they will use stolen materials and if there is a problem later they will be nowhere to be seen.
Yet time and time again people employ them because they are cheap.
Stop it.
Brooking10 said:
We'd do far better to try and understand those root causes than froth about nonexistent imagined minority protectionism..
The ‘root causes’ are the inability of the police to do anything to even start to properly investigate let alone press charges on anything to do with traveller crimes (murder enquires excepted).THAT is my experience and that of many others on here.
If doing bugger all is protectionism then there theyre guilty of that too, but it starts with a total lack of wanting to get involved with anything to do with travellers. Too much hassle? Probably.
citizensm1th said:
La Liga said:
In the main I raise that point is when the keyboard warriors, whose confrontational experience probably consists of angry emails, write things like "the police are scared of them" etc.
You really are becoming a bit of a parody, while i am white and middle aged i am not angry just saddened that a section of our society can and has acted with impunity in a large number of low level crimes.As per the line you quoted, the comment was aimed at those who write things like I wrote in bold. Plenty have on here, and it's a reflection that they have no idea of the risk officers place themselves at on a daily basis, including with travellers.
Sorry if suggesting they have no idea through the email comment is a bit far for you. I'll try and tone the harshness down.
I wasn't talking about it in relation to low-level crime (which I wrote about earlier). If I was, I'd have written that.
rxe said:
You’re making the point perfectly clear - but IMO you’re very wrong.
The subtlety about the digger is that the request to look at it was a negotiation. “Community Leaders” were involved. Community leaders said no, you can’t look at it, and the police took it on the chin.
If you or I appointed community leaders, and threatened violence when the police wanted to look in our shed, we’d end up face down in the mud in short order. That doesn’t happen to these people.
If you or I drove a car with false number plates, and did so while behaving anti socially in front of serving policemen, we might expect to be nicked for something. That doesn’t happen to these people.
Why?
They know they have protection as a minority group and those that have learnt to read know all the tricks in the book to wind plod up in knots. The rest of us have to continue putting up with the scum and having crime increase as they realise in many areas there is little or no policing at all now. So yes in many ways the police are scared of them. The subtlety about the digger is that the request to look at it was a negotiation. “Community Leaders” were involved. Community leaders said no, you can’t look at it, and the police took it on the chin.
If you or I appointed community leaders, and threatened violence when the police wanted to look in our shed, we’d end up face down in the mud in short order. That doesn’t happen to these people.
If you or I drove a car with false number plates, and did so while behaving anti socially in front of serving policemen, we might expect to be nicked for something. That doesn’t happen to these people.
Why?
It takes a murder for the penny to drop and that’ll only be for the duration of the investigation.
rxe said:
You’re making the point perfectly clear - but IMO you’re very wrong.
The subtlety about the digger is that the request to look at it was a negotiation. “Community Leaders” were involved. Community leaders said no, you can’t look at it, and the police took it on the chin.
If you or I appointed community leaders, and threatened violence when the police wanted to look in our shed, we’d end up face down in the mud in short order. That doesn’t happen to these people.
If you or I drove a car with false number plates, and did so while behaving anti socially in front of serving policemen, we might expect to be nicked for something. That doesn’t happen to these people.
Why?
My point is very simple The subtlety about the digger is that the request to look at it was a negotiation. “Community Leaders” were involved. Community leaders said no, you can’t look at it, and the police took it on the chin.
If you or I appointed community leaders, and threatened violence when the police wanted to look in our shed, we’d end up face down in the mud in short order. That doesn’t happen to these people.
If you or I drove a car with false number plates, and did so while behaving anti socially in front of serving policemen, we might expect to be nicked for something. That doesn’t happen to these people.
Why?
I do not believe there is anything enshrined in law or police practices that says gypsies should be spared the law because they are a protected minority.
If anybody can show me clear evidence, not an interpretation of what they have witnessed, I am happy to change my position.
I am not doubting that criminal acts by gypsies go unpunished / uninvestigated and like others would like to understand why.
citizensm1th said:
Thank you for confirming the point i was making.(about you becoming a parody)
I don't think this cutting 'parody' line gets any better with repetition. Perhaps it'll fall into place with a third mention. citizensm1th said:
if you think that was a rant it is you who really have no idea about confrontation.
I wouldn't associate ranting with confrontation. Odd link to make. I called it a rant as it had nothing to do with the specifics of the line you quoted (which you've ignored).
citizensm1th said:
you are one of the first to post on any law and order thread where the police are criticised and you never ever even when shown numerous examples of the police not conducting themselves as we the public wish them to accept that things need to improve.
Strawman. I'm perfectly happy to accept any failings when there's evidence / facts to back them up. There are numerous topics where I've condemned police behaviour. I just have higher standards than just believing something because it's written or it's someone's opinion.
citizensm1th said:
you are not doing a service you purport to have been or are a member of any favours whatsoever
Or on the flip-side clarifying misconceptionsgaragewidow said:
SmoothCriminal said:
Do these scum get to run riot around their native Ireland or is it just this country they get away with murder.
No. scum get to run riot around their native Ireland or is it just this country they get away with murder.That's why they are over here,i know a few Irishmen in my local who say they were as much a problem in Ireland as here.
Ireland as made trespass a criminal offence. That is certainly a quicker way of dealing with trespass than we have.
However, one of the key differences is that the Local Authorities are under a duty to sort accommodation under The Housing Act 1988 and The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 which is believed to be the cause of very few unauthorised encampments.
Bigends said:
ellroy said:
BBC reporting they’re searching a caravan site.
That’s a bit of a shock....
Note - they wont call it a travellers site thoughThat’s a bit of a shock....
“Police have been at the Four Houses Corner Caravan Site, about three miles from the death scene, since Friday.
Run by West Berkshire Council, it is described as a traveller site on the authority's website.”
A Policeman has been killed in the line of duty and PHers are lining up to have a pop at the BBC and advance bulls
t theories about protected minorities rather than consider what specifically and realistically needs to be done to curb an obviously lawless element of society. I despair for this place sometimes.
Smiler. said:
We get it, you're superior to everyone else.
There are pages & pages of almost round the clock posting of your squabbling with others.
You're a big part of the problem.
If you despair so much, why not try elsewhere?
And you sir are typical of a certain type of NPE blow hard, with little to add but invective and nothing for practical consideration.There are pages & pages of almost round the clock posting of your squabbling with others.
You're a big part of the problem.
If you despair so much, why not try elsewhere?
In this instance I’m interested solely in how we can take sensible measures to prevent this kind of thing happening.
Wasting time on an anti BBC agenda and ranting at an imagined shadowy liberal “protected minority” agenda is just b
ks.Yes these people get away with far too much, we should be asking why. The answers would seem to be found in a box broadly labelled “ because it’s too difficult”. That’s not acceptable and we should be asking why and how that changes.
rscott said:
98elise said:
Brooking10 said:
Bigends said:
ellroy said:
BBC reporting they’re searching a caravan site.
That’s a bit of a shock....
Note - they wont call it a travellers site thoughThat’s a bit of a shock....
“Police have been at the Four Houses Corner Caravan Site, about three miles from the death scene, since Friday.
Run by West Berkshire Council, it is described as a traveller site on the authority's website.”
A Policeman has been killed in the line of duty and PHers are lining up to have a pop at the BBC and advance bulls
t theories about protected minorities rather than consider what specifically and realistically needs to be done to curb an obviously lawless element of society. I despair for this place sometimes.
Smiler. said:
Blow-Hard? I know you like a scrap, but I'm certainly not going to fuel your ego.
If you want a sensible debate, why not drop things like " an imagined shadowy liberal “protected minority” agenda is just bks".
Because if you'd been on the receiving end of the grief, mess, damage, thievery, threats & actual "bks" resulting from the slightest of interactions with these types, you'd have a different opinion.
You say you want to understand why, but belittle options to which you don't subscribe.
So feel free to have the acerbic last word, or, act like an adult, drop the pomposity & you might get some answers.
Like most of us I’ve had run ins and less than pleasant experiences. Please don’t try and paint me as some kind of naive standard bearer for the traveller community. If you want a sensible debate, why not drop things like " an imagined shadowy liberal “protected minority” agenda is just b
ks".Because if you'd been on the receiving end of the grief, mess, damage, thievery, threats & actual "b
ks" resulting from the slightest of interactions with these types, you'd have a different opinion.You say you want to understand why, but belittle options to which you don't subscribe.
So feel free to have the acerbic last word, or, act like an adult, drop the pomposity & you might get some answers.
If you read what I am actually saying it boils down to two things:
1 - I do not believe that travellers avoid prosecution because somebody(ies)on high has deemed them a protected minority on human rights grounds and that somehow the media is complicit in trying not to draw attention to them.
2 - we should be getting to the bottom of why procedurally it seems that in many cases prosecuting travellers seems simply too difficult/time consuming/diversionary
End of story.
Police have further time to question the suspects.
http://news.sky.com/story/pc-killing-suspects-were...
http://news.sky.com/story/pc-killing-suspects-were...
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