Police Officer killed on duty

[anonymous-user]

croyde said:

My girlfriend is the kindest, softest person I know and is totally opposite to me in political leanings. Very liberal and left wing.

Yet she feking hates the travelling types and calls them by their more colloquial name and says so vehemently whenever they come and dirty up the local common.

If these people can evoke such feelings in her.........

Exactly the same here. Mrs ‘PC’ Pushfit gets very sweary at the mention of them.

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Death penalty - check.
Brexit - check.
BBC bashing - check
Soft prisons - check

Any more on the NPE bingo card I’ve missed?

Soundbite, insubstantial, school-level response from those with nothing more profound than e.g. bingo to offer?

Superb excursion irony as happens at times like this, all-told a great shame given the nature of events.

I’ve done one post discussing the relative proportions with statistical limitations, and also one discussing the relatively proportions of travellers in England vs Ireland as well as the differences in criminal law as well as the LA’s obligations in Ireland.

You’re welcome to pick up on those bits if you’re missing a bit of depth to discuss.

Or just default to easy, obvious “points” you’ve raised throughout.

[anonymous-user]

CAPP0 said:

Drclarke said:

The do-gooders

These people, include the ones on the thread, are a significant part of the overall problem.

?????

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

La Liga said:

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Death penalty - check.
Brexit - check.
BBC bashing - check
Soft prisons - check

Any more on the NPE bingo card I’ve missed?

Soundbite, insubstantial, school-level response from those with nothing more profound than e.g. bingo to offer?

Superb excursion irony as happens at times like this, all-told a great shame given the nature of events.

I’ve done one post discussing the relative proportions with statistical limitations, and also one discussing the relatively proportions of travellers in England vs Ireland as well as the differences in criminal law as well as the LA’s obligations in Ireland.

You’re welcome to pick up on those bits if you’re missing a bit of depth to discuss.

Or just default to easy, obvious “points” you’ve raised throughout.

Plod on NPE vs Caravan Utilising Nomadic Traveller bingo card anyone?

Cuts
No resources
Tories
Bank holidays
Statistics
Over represented in prisons
Etc.

It’s all there - house! I am not critiquing LL directly, but it is this attitude which stubs out any action with a useful outcome. It is no good to just keep doing the same, it doesn’t work. Whilst those factors above may actually be the case, they don’t need to be. It is (way beyond) time for the service as an organised unit to make a difference. According to the above bingo card and anecdotal evidence, the way these (using the term in its loosest sense) people operate is known. So prioritise, organise behind a strategy, resource it and act.

It appears from this incident and some reading on here that some individual officers out there are doing a great job and risking a lot personally. They need the backing and support of legislation and their senior staff direction to focus on this as a short sharp shock to the miscreants (being polite). It is very sad to see one (apparently) very good young man doing his job lose his life against these.... I had better not say the words...

It's about having a factual discussion and using what data and information we have to draw conclusions.

That as opposed to relying on lazy stereotypes and generalisations. A prime example being when people state travellers drive with no insurance etc. Any police officer who deals with them will tell you this isn't the case.

I've spoken about two things the Irish have done that may be useful in terms of legislation and approach.

Plenty to look at there and rather more useful than blaming 'do-gooders', etc.

I can see why the low-hanging fruit of me mocking NPE would be more attractive to the likes of TB than the other parts, though.

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

Weighed up against the somewhat more serious crimes than no insurance on vehicles you criticise folks for citing, I would suggest that this specific community is massively under represented in prisons - because the type of human slavery, drug trafficking and other organised crimes they commit carry very long sentences even before we get into the kind of lesser anti social behaviour they demonstrate to add to a moment in time statistic of s in prison.

Given there's no agreed figure for how many are in the country, and the CJS doesn't have adequate data for traveller ethnicity, saying they are under-represented (relative to their total crime) is guess work.

If here are 300k, the upper estimate, how many of that number are criminals?

A minority?

Who knows?

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.

Are they?

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

La Liga said:

SeeFive said:

Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.

Are they?

Almost certainly given their MO.

As my edit above, if you base criminality in a specific sector on convictions, we have no problem with speeding in the UK. I don’t know the statistics, but out of the millions of driving licenses issued, I would suggest that recorded convictions will show that (perhaps) the average motorist only exceeds the speed limit once every 6 years... on average.

We know the reality for both groups as much as you try to hide it behind statistics.

I don't think it's almost certain the majority of 300,000 (upper estimate) people are breaking those laws you specify daily.

Saying they do is guess work.

Does everyone or the majority of people who identify as such have the same 'MO'?

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

Here’s some guess work for your statistics. I would suggest that they are vastly under recorded.

“A fourth defendant has been convicted for his part in a £300,000 wrecking spree at a brewery which was illegally occupied by a group of 100 travellers.”

4 out of 100. All the rest weren’t even there your honour, despite 100 “illegally occupying the site. 96 convictions missed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-4...

Possibly so. Then again lots of crime is vastly under-recorded.

Large-scale disorder at football matches, for example, will have a low conviction to offence ratio.

That's what can happen at scale.

A lot of what you are saying is still pure guess work.

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

In that example, is it pure guess work?

You've asserted the following:

SeeFive said:

La Liga said:

SeeFive said:

Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.

Are they?

Almost certainly given their MO.

And now you're trying to use one example as proof of that your guess work, which was talking about the majority, is true.

Given we don't have an accurate number for both the crimes committed by travellers and even the actual number of travellers, it's not possible to state what you've stated as fact about 'the majority'.

The best we have is the fact a disproportionate number are in prison which infers they commit a disproportionate amount of crime (which I believe to be the case).

But then that applies to other groups and wouldn't entitle us to conclude things about 'the majority'.

SeeFive said:

Every plod and his dog at the time acknowledged that it was mob rule and they couldn’t respond due to resourcing limitations to paraphrase that thread. Convictions for minor offences which are MO didn’t happen. Therefore they are not in your conviction statistics. 300,000 as you suggest, every day, every bank holiday going unrecorded because of resourcing issues. Please, come on.

As I say, under-recording applies throughout the CJS.

You're highlighting the under-recording of one group.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't plenty of crimes committed by travellers that aren't linked to them, I am saying there's nothing which entitles you to draw those conclusions about 'the majority' as you have done.

SeeFive said:

Please don’t be daft. It is plain. They ALL broke the law of illegal occupation.

I didn't say otherwise. Even though it may well be the case (children under 10, trespass in this case may only amount to civil etc). You're stating things as facts which you're not entitled to. Seems to be a habit.

'Illegal occupation' isn't a crime. That was one of the main points about me drawing comparisons with Ireland is they have made trespass a crime per se, whereas it is for us in limited circumstances and in reality when it is they aren't great laws (aggravated trespass etc).

I also expect they'd be a few crimes with multiple suspects, depending on what was recorded.

If a pub is smashed up by 50 football fans, there aren't 50 instances of criminal damage recorded. There weren't several thousand public order crimes recorded during the last riots.

So the crimes would be accurately recorded.

SeeFive said:

4% got convicted. Our police effort is not effective, and I am not blaming the officers I am blaming the system for not applying the law and recording criminal activity in conviction statistics, and hence I completely disregard your conviction statistics based on my personal experience and evidence such as that quoted.

How do you know what crimes were and were not recorded?

Where have I quoted conviction statistics?

Interesting that the Traveller Movement wants the police to separately record thier ethnicity. Seems odd they'd want to risking highlighting the 'majority almost certainly' are breaking laws daily.

The anecdote at the end from the police officer is also interesting. Corroborates what I have also seen.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/po...

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

iven there's no agreed figure for how many are in the country, and the CJS doesn't have adequate data for traveller ethnicity, saying they are under-represented (relative to their total crime) is guess work.

If here are 300k, the upper estimate, how many of that number are criminals?

A minority?

Who knows?

You keep referring to data. There will be very little data in the elephant in the room (travellers) due to their MO plus there’s little point in reporting their crime as the Police won’t do anything about it anyway.
One thing is for certain - they are the scourge of a great many communities and are a crime driven ‘minority group’ that has a huge impact on the country, far greater than police ‘data’ would ever show and disproportionately high for the their numbers.

[anonymous-user]

SeeFive said:

Firstly, I am not asserting anything. I am having a conversation based on very long term experience and what I have read widely.

Secondly, it is not my guess work. It is widely reported information.

Incorrect, you've asserted the following in bold:

SeeFive said:

La Liga said:

SeeFive said:

Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.

Are they?

Almost certainly given their MO.

Where is it 'widely reported' that the specific things in bold are true?

SeeFive said:

Your statistics are clearly flawed.

Which statistics? I don't recall citing any.

In any event, I've literally spoken about general data limitations several times. Are you actually reading my posts?

SeeFive said:

Our problem is lawless travellers. Our problem is grossly understated in criminal conviction statistics. Where is the conviction for the guy that tried to fleece my dad for tarmaccing until he was met with overpowering force? Where is the conviction for the that sold a caravan to a friend, and when I looked at the missing plate on the towbar told him that it would be stolen inside a week, wind up back on a local site to be sold to the next mug (rince and repeat). And it did, simple con artist picket MO. Where is the conviction for driving many cars and caravans on common land which was a training ground for footballers local to me and cost £70,000 to remove the toxicity after they left? And thousands of similar health hazards created by this community who contribute nothing to our society.

I don't think you seem to understand how few convictions there are relative to recorded crimes and obviously unrecorded crimes.

You seem to think this is just an issue with travellers.

SeeFive said:

I wait to be corrected, but the way that you write you seem to have had little or no real world involvement with these cheeky scamps. The reason I say that is your figures do not correlate with my reality even in my wildest dreams.

Plenty with mixed experiences.

Certainly enough to indicate to that, that in no way are the (to paraphrase) 'majority almost certainly committing crime every day'.

SeeFive said:

Fourthly, we are actually talking about travellers here, so football fans and other diversions have no relevance to this discussion. Once we have finished with the s then we can redeploy to the lesser issues you refer.

The mention of football fans was to help explain how crime data are recorded. It wasn't about football fans specifically.

Re-read it in context.

La Liga said:

At that admittedly single high profile example a 4% success rate.

Again, were there 100 criminal offenders? You have no idea but for some reason can't recognise when you are not in a position to draw such conclusions.

You've made some sweeping statements you can't support (in bold) and are now relying on anecdotes to try and justify what you've said.

98elise said:

La Liga said:

SeeFive said:

Here’s some guess work for your statistics. I would suggest that they are vastly under recorded.

“A fourth defendant has been convicted for his part in a £300,000 wrecking spree at a brewery which was illegally occupied by a group of 100 travellers.”

4 out of 100. All the rest weren’t even there your honour, despite 100 “illegally occupying the site. 96 convictions missed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-4...

Possibly so. Then again lots of crime is vastly under-recorded.

Large-scale disorder at football matches, for example, will have a low conviction to offence ratio.

That's what can happen at scale.

A lot of what you are saying is still pure guess work.

Non payment of council tax is a crime. The majority of travellers on legal sites don't pay it.

Don't they? Websites from LAs seem to think they do. Here's one for example: https://www.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/your-cou...

What are you basing that on?

Even if that were the case, most don't live on sites therefore that couldn't amount to the majority SeeFive is referring to when making things up.

V6 Pushfit said:

La Liga said:

iven there's no agreed figure for how many are in the country, and the CJS doesn't have adequate data for traveller ethnicity, saying they are under-represented (relative to their total crime) is guess work.

If here are 300k, the upper estimate, how many of that number are criminals?

A minority?

Who knows?

You keep referring to data. There will be very little data in the elephant in the room (travellers) due to their MO plus there’s little point in reporting their crime as the Police won’t do anything about it anyway.
One thing is for certain - they are the scourge of a great many communities and are a crime driven ‘minority group’ that has a huge impact on the country, far greater than police ‘data’ would ever show and disproportionately high for the their numbers.

I've literally said there are data issues in the part of the post you've quoted and also said my belief if they commit a disproportionate amount of crime in another post.

The ones in prison would probably disagree 'nothing would be done'.

Agammemnon said:

La Liga said:

iven there's no agreed figure for how many are in the country, and the CJS doesn't have adequate data for traveller ethnicity, saying they are under-represented (relative to their total crime) is guess work.

Yet you frequently state that they are over-represented as if it's fact.

Because even with the upper estimate, which has a decent margin of error built in, they would still be over-represented. Also it's believed the number in prison is an under-estimate due to travellers not identifying themselves as such when the data was gathered.

Nice try. Perhaps your third username will have more success.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 18th August 12:33

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

La Liga said:

Nice try. Perhaps your third username will have more success.

Agammemnon ?

Is this the bloke with the self-proclaimed massive IQ ?

You know, the one who can't spell Agamemnon ?

Rarely Humble with his IQ bragging.

[anonymous-user]

rscott said:

I guess you're not understanding what he's saying (probably deliberately, given your posting history).

Indeed. Different username, same old trolling and stupidity.

I'm sure he'll think he knows better than the HMIP.

HMIP said:

"Even on the lowest estimates … it is clear that prisoners of Gypsy, Romany and Traveller backgrounds are significantly over-represented in the prison population."

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

La Liga said:

Red 4 said:

La Liga said:

Nice try. Perhaps your third username will have more success.

Agammemnon ?

Is this the bloke with the self-proclaimed massive IQ ?

You know, the one who can't spell Agamemnon ?

Rarely Humble with his IQ bragging.

Agamemnon - King of Argos.

It's probably quite fitting.

I can imagine him dripping in dodgy Elizabeth Duke jewellery (neck chain and sovereign ring) whilst perusing the latest catalogue.

Chavtastic.

Your IQ isn't high enough to understand the name, pleb.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

Seconded, and if that support of a post telling someone to FRO earns me a ban then so be it.

I think he's best ignored, just like a lot of people did with his old name.

You're dealing with someone who gets proven wrong (as per the traveller prison statement). Rather than accept that, he gets a little emotional and starts trying to 'get one over' with the lowest-common denominator sarcasm and other 'cunning' questions.

Not much point in engaging someone who operates at that rather low level.

Pleb said:

98elise posted the link a few pages ago chap, it would appear that payment of council tax among traveler communities was about 17% in the FOI request results. The rate among the rest of the population was 97%.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1502866/Mo...

98elise also said, "legal sites".

That link is talking about unauthorised sites. It's also quite old so there may have been changes.

It also goes back to the obligations the Irish LAs have. If we had the same would that be better from a compliance and enforcement point of view?

rscott said:

They've already said why they can't go in to sites - don't have the resources to do it safely.

No senior officer would let half a dozen officers (typically all that's available in the district I live in) go into a traveller site of 150+ people to arrest someone for a burglary or similar.

They need massively greater resources to do so, but there simply aren't the officers available on a routine basis.

It depends on the site.

Some there's no problem going on with fewer numbers.

Some you'd want a lot more.

Similar things happen in other areas of the country, like 'rough estates', for example.

[anonymous-user]

Bigends said:

I worked on some rough estates and we never needed the numbers required to effect a similar arrest / search required on the permanent travellers sites on our area. We'd more often than not have the support of many of the locals for sorting out the bad apples on the area. We had Gypsy liaison officers for many years who had points of contact with residents on each site. They would often take the sting out of any confrontation resulting from arrests or searches on the permanent sites.

It depends on the areas, it depends on the sites, it depends on the circumstances.

Recovering stolen plant on a site would be different from trying to arrest someone, in my experience, for example.

A good liaison officer is helpful.

[anonymous-user]

98elise said:

The article discussed both travelers sites, and illegal encampments. As far as I know council tax isn't due on an illegal site. Who would you send the hill to?

The article also says...

"The Conservative s asked local authorities with the highest number of sites to disclose their collection rate. Of the 46 that responded, 30 said they collected no council tax from travellers."

The article may be old, what what makes you think things have improved? Illegal encampments are on the up and costing law abiding people more and more. My brother's works car park was recently invaded, and the clean up and legal bill's came in at around 15k, which I gather was quite cheap!

I don't expect illegal ones pay, but then do they receive any services?

I believe the law should be stronger to deal with unauthorised sites along with considering the obligations LA's have in Ireland for providing sites.

Do those on authorised sites pay? Local authorities (like the one I linked) say so, and if anyone would know, it would be them.

Regardless, the source of this is where I was telling SeeFive he couldn't saying 'the majority almost certainly break laws daily' (paraphrasing), and you said that the majority don't pay CT (which would support what SeeFive was saying). I highlighted most people who identify as travellers don't live on sites / in caravans so even if a majority of those on sites didn't, it still wouldn't support SeeFive drawing that conclusion.

rxe said:

Is anyone allowed to have a liaison officer? Can I set one up, and only talk to the police if the liaison officer has negotiated a meeting? Or is this service only for travellers?

Protests have them.

Setup a protest and you'll be able to have a meeting with one.

The liaison officer is a silent assassin. They're dedicated to knowing all about travellers in their area. That includes their criminality and a good liaison officer will be gathering intelligence / information that leads to action.

It's actually pretty much what I imagine most people would want on here. It just has a friendly name.

[anonymous-user]

rxe said:

I’m confused, why do you need a liaison officer to recover stolen plant? If you can see a stolen digger, what is so sacred about a caravan site that you cannot enter?

You don't.

They may simply comes across / be aware of stolen items that would otherwise be unknown.

troika said:

We can get rid of these ‘liaison officers’ as well. They are clearly part of the problem.

Clearly. You must know so much about them.

[anonymous-user]

Cost him internet shaming.

[anonymous-user]

rallycross said:

Petrus1983 said:

Does anyone know what’s happened to any of the 10 originally arrested - it seems to have fallen off the news radar, or I’m looking in the wrong place.

Hey would all have said no comment don’t know don’t remember to every question and then been released . Scum.

I think they're probably still in custody during their time extension.