Police Officer killed on duty
Discussion
France has 340 police officers per 100,000 population.
220,000 officers.
England and Wales has 208 police officers per 100,000 population.
120,000 officers.
A quarter of those are Metropolitan Police which leaves about 90,000 for everywhere else.
Not very many when you considers shifts, nonoperational roles, etc etc etc.
Anyone care to guess how many would be on duty and deployable at any one time ?
220,000 officers.
England and Wales has 208 police officers per 100,000 population.
120,000 officers.
A quarter of those are Metropolitan Police which leaves about 90,000 for everywhere else.
Not very many when you considers shifts, nonoperational roles, etc etc etc.
Anyone care to guess how many would be on duty and deployable at any one time ?
citizensm1th said:
Red 4 said:
They may have helped in the past with domestic security issues but they are not police officers and do not have the training or the powers.
some do so do some sailors and some airmenCare to elaborate citizensmith ?
Red 4 said:
citizensm1th said:
Red 4 said:
They may have helped in the past with domestic security issues but they are not police officers and do not have the training or the powers.
some do so do some sailors and some airmenCare to elaborate citizensmith ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_School_of_Po...
even i have the power of arrest ,the guys and gals who have passed this course also have the legal training and equipment
granted while not being constables i am more than confidant that they can if required assist civilian police.
this however is not the point i was making i am not calling for the army to take on the role of the police, however the army could quite easily conduct security for the police to enable them to carry out their duties that at the moment they cannot because we are told there are insufficient numbers.
as i stated earlier a lack of numbers is not a good excuse we as a nation could very easily get a grip on these camps of roving thieves the only thing holding us back is the political will
citizensm1th said:
Any service personnel who have passed through here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_School_of_Po...
even i have the power of arrest ,the guys and gals who have passed this course also have the legal training and equipment
granted while not being constables i am more than confidant that they can if required assist civilian police.
this however is not the point i was making i am not calling for the army to take on the role of the police, however the army could quite easily conduct security for the police to enable them to carry out their duties that at the moment they cannot because we are told there are insufficient numbers.
as i stated earlier a lack of numbers is not a good excuse we as a nation could very easily get a grip on these camps of roving thieves the only thing holding us back is the political will
Nope.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_School_of_Po...
even i have the power of arrest ,the guys and gals who have passed this course also have the legal training and equipment
granted while not being constables i am more than confidant that they can if required assist civilian police.
this however is not the point i was making i am not calling for the army to take on the role of the police, however the army could quite easily conduct security for the police to enable them to carry out their duties that at the moment they cannot because we are told there are insufficient numbers.
as i stated earlier a lack of numbers is not a good excuse we as a nation could very easily get a grip on these camps of roving thieves the only thing holding us back is the political will
Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Sorry I couldn’t respond in your timeframe LL, I have been at the hospital all day again today with a very sick missus on the lung ward and just got in. I also don’t remember saying anything about community charge, just a range of crimes, including as we seem to agree the Irish solution to trespass as an enabler and everything else from ASB to human trafficking. You really don’t have to look too far to find myriad examples of the MO. There are examples on here of the “give them a crime number” approach that can lead some far from the actual cheeky chappies themselves to believe that all is good as you suggest.
Try observing them. Try dealing with them. Get your drive done. Have them remove a mix of valuable aluminium and trash from a site and see what goes first, and what is never taken on the promised missing return trip as agreed. Stand behind them in a shop as they maraud through, one paying for a mars bar and the others leaving with quite a bit of stock unpaid for. Sit in a restaurant and observe them putting their own hair into food trying to refuse to pay, and see what happens when they are challenged. Be in the local pub the week after the landlord has ejected two of them and see what happens when they return mob handed to sort out the landlord (luckily that night most of the boxing club were in). When they build an illegal encampment close to your home, try taking your usual dog walk route which happens to be close to that latest infestation and see what happens. Live in Epsom at Derby time. Live close to Wickham for that infestation. You will find it is far from the few spoiling the image of the many. Just like the average speeding motorist who apparently only speeds once every 6 years if you just look at the convictions, unfortunately the lawlessness that goes with that lifestyle when properly observed is way different to the recorded crime.
And since I am in such a great mood to discuss this (not), present personal experience and do all the googling for you for the news articles reporting it (not) I will just leave it at the fact that you obviously know best, are steeped in convivial interaction with them and what we are doing today is just fine with regard to preventing these little scamps from committing no crime at all. No need to create a properly resourced focus such as we do against other problem areas of society (drugs, serious crime etc) as clearly they are law abiding in the main.
They are treated no different to the rest of us, plod is under resourced for fear of a confrontation to come and arrest me where I live too I am sure should I ever commit a crime.
“Nothing to see here, on your way sir”.... “Thanks officer”.
I did deal with them. Try observing them. Try dealing with them. Get your drive done. Have them remove a mix of valuable aluminium and trash from a site and see what goes first, and what is never taken on the promised missing return trip as agreed. Stand behind them in a shop as they maraud through, one paying for a mars bar and the others leaving with quite a bit of stock unpaid for. Sit in a restaurant and observe them putting their own hair into food trying to refuse to pay, and see what happens when they are challenged. Be in the local pub the week after the landlord has ejected two of them and see what happens when they return mob handed to sort out the landlord (luckily that night most of the boxing club were in). When they build an illegal encampment close to your home, try taking your usual dog walk route which happens to be close to that latest infestation and see what happens. Live in Epsom at Derby time. Live close to Wickham for that infestation. You will find it is far from the few spoiling the image of the many. Just like the average speeding motorist who apparently only speeds once every 6 years if you just look at the convictions, unfortunately the lawlessness that goes with that lifestyle when properly observed is way different to the recorded crime.
And since I am in such a great mood to discuss this (not), present personal experience and do all the googling for you for the news articles reporting it (not) I will just leave it at the fact that you obviously know best, are steeped in convivial interaction with them and what we are doing today is just fine with regard to preventing these little scamps from committing no crime at all. No need to create a properly resourced focus such as we do against other problem areas of society (drugs, serious crime etc) as clearly they are law abiding in the main.
They are treated no different to the rest of us, plod is under resourced for fear of a confrontation to come and arrest me where I live too I am sure should I ever commit a crime.
“Nothing to see here, on your way sir”.... “Thanks officer”.
All that experience did was reinforce that your assertions about what 'that majority almost certainly do' is wrong.
Every “illegal encampment” is full of our friends breaking the law, or it wouldn’t be an illegal encampment. So 100% are breaking the law daily before they start their business efforts. Some will hide behind words such as “it’s not really illegal”, if so, why is it so named?
And another personal example last night. Not breaking a law per-se but certainly making a nuisance of themselves in their usual ignorant way.
I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
citizensm1th said:
Just how long do you think these mobile thieves would hang around if they were getting raided by the police, the taxman and social services with army support at the slightest hint of wrongdoing.
after 6 months of that a large part of the problem would have moved on back to ireland or off to the continent.
and it would give boris a head start on his recruitment program for the pold he has been making a lot of noise about recently
Exactly and whilst that sounds obvious to most people the do gooders will say it’s bad.after 6 months of that a large part of the problem would have moved on back to ireland or off to the continent.
and it would give boris a head start on his recruitment program for the pold he has been making a lot of noise about recently
Just as a side note I’ve been banned from PH before for making what I thought was a perfectly valid point about travellers - after more than ten years on the forum I got locked out and profile killed because I expressed my view on travellet’s - pc nonsense from
Folks who have never had first hand dealings with these human vermine (we’ve had things stolen and the police refused to help when we said we knew where it was).
SeeFive said:
Not assertions, I don’t know why you keep using that word. Experience chap, just experience. Always the same, never differs.
Which doesn't prove what you stated: SeeFive said:
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.
Are they?SeeFive said:
Every “illegal encampment” is full of our friends breaking the law, or it wouldn’t be an illegal encampment. So 100% are breaking the law daily before they start their business efforts. Some will hide behind words such as “it’s not really illegal”, if so, why is it so named?
Illegal encampments don't make up the majority of travellers like you were talking about. See the bold above. SeeFive said:
And another personal example last night. Not breaking a law per-se but certainly making a nuisance of themselves in their usual ignorant way.
I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
Which as nothing to do with what you stated as fact (if you prefer that). I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
Red 4 said:
citizensm1th said:
Any service personnel who have passed through here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_School_of_Po...
even i have the power of arrest ,the guys and gals who have passed this course also have the legal training and equipment
granted while not being constables i am more than confidant that they can if required assist civilian police.
this however is not the point i was making i am not calling for the army to take on the role of the police, however the army could quite easily conduct security for the police to enable them to carry out their duties that at the moment they cannot because we are told there are insufficient numbers.
as i stated earlier a lack of numbers is not a good excuse we as a nation could very easily get a grip on these camps of roving thieves the only thing holding us back is the political will
Nope.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_School_of_Po...
even i have the power of arrest ,the guys and gals who have passed this course also have the legal training and equipment
granted while not being constables i am more than confidant that they can if required assist civilian police.
this however is not the point i was making i am not calling for the army to take on the role of the police, however the army could quite easily conduct security for the police to enable them to carry out their duties that at the moment they cannot because we are told there are insufficient numbers.
as i stated earlier a lack of numbers is not a good excuse we as a nation could very easily get a grip on these camps of roving thieves the only thing holding us back is the political will
Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Not assertions, I don’t know why you keep using that word. Experience chap, just experience. Always the same, never differs.
Which doesn't prove what you stated. SeeFive said:
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Where do you want to start on criminality? Anti-social behaviour? Driving motor vehicles on common land? Threatening behaviour, breach of peace, trespass, human trafficking, even your citing of TB’s motoring discrepancies (which I admit are not criminal offences in the main) they will be there in some percentage. They are all laws, and certainly for the minor ones in that list, many are broken daily by the majority. And seemingly it is escalating in severity and nonchalance towards the laws of the land and the communities they lay scorn upon given events of the last few years such as the brewery and similar events.
Are they?SeeFive said:
Every “illegal encampment” is full of our friends breaking the law, or it wouldn’t be an illegal encampment. So 100% are breaking the law daily before they start their business efforts. Some will hide behind words such as “it’s not really illegal”, if so, why is it so named?
Illegal encampments don't make up the majority of travellers as you stated in bold above. . SeeFive said:
And another personal example last night. Not breaking a law per-se but certainly making a nuisance of themselves in their usual ignorant way.
I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
Which as nothing to do with what you stated as fact (if you prefer that). I mentioned my missus is in hospital. Nice quiet ward, 6 women, respectful visitors helping staff where possible with care of their loved ones. Guess who rolled up shrieking in pain like you could not believe? I think you may have guessed.
From minute one, the really poor and aggressively demanding attitude to medical staff, noise, unruly behaviour around some pretty unwell people, inability to count to 2 (2 round a bed maximum) general atmosphere changed in an instant from peace to a more aggressive environment.
And when they left, the previously shrieking and howling in pain patient throughout their visit was on her feet between two occupied beds by the window loudly on her mobile phone to the assholes outside leaning on the hooters of their cars as they were on the road among all the wards leaving the hospital site.
The staff weren’t happy, occupants of the ward weren’t happy, but maybe because of their “special status” in our country decided to let it go, as tends to be the usual way. Personally, I don’t blame them as it clearly would have only made things worse as it is usual case with our tin house friends responding in their feral way to rightful challenge.
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
SeeFive said:
Sorry mate, you appear to be trolling me with one liners and quite a few others on here with extremely relevant experience of those little tinkers. If your version of the facts differ, then that is fine by me, mine differ from yours and are bloody good concrete experience.
A few anecdotes don't entitle you to state what you did. SeeFive said:
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
I'm well aware of their criminality and methods. That has nothing to do with what you wrote.
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Sorry mate, you appear to be trolling me with one liners and quite a few others on here with extremely relevant experience of those little tinkers. If your version of the facts differ, then that is fine by me, mine differ from yours and are bloody good concrete experience.
A few anecdotes don't entitle you to state what you did. SeeFive said:
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
I'm well aware of their criminality and methods. That has nothing to do with what you wrote.
SeeFive said:
La Liga said:
SeeFive said:
Sorry mate, you appear to be trolling me with one liners and quite a few others on here with extremely relevant experience of those little tinkers. If your version of the facts differ, then that is fine by me, mine differ from yours and are bloody good concrete experience.
A few anecdotes don't entitle you to state what you did. SeeFive said:
If you cannot recognise the MO of these people, then you are blind. If you cannot see that it is widespread throughout the community, then you are blind. Time for me to disengage as I have no power to help the blind see, and frankly do not have the time to waste on such futile efforts right now.
I'm well aware of their criminality and methods. That has nothing to do with what you wrote.
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
La Liga said:
t's not a case of granting, it a case of a few anecdotes / experiences don't entitle you to state that the 'majority almost certainly commit crime daily' (paraphrasing).
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
Stop being a nob, if you know anything about how they behave you would not say that.
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
Stop being a nob, if you know anything about how they behave you would not say that.
Red 4 said:
Nope.
Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
Stop try to divert, that is not the point I am making as you well know, there are service personnel well versed in law and police training which you stated was not the case. Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
My point is the army could be used to bolster police numbers in spacific cases like raiding camps of thieves, the whole we do not have the manpower to act is just a smokescreen for the lack of political will
citizensm1th said:
Red 4 said:
Nope.
Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
You do realise that these military police have day jobs as well? Who does that when they're out helping the police? Or do you imagine there are hoards of military police sat around waiting for some squaddie to walk on the grass?Military police only have jurisdiction over service personnel or anyone subject to military discipline.
You may have citizens powers of arrest over the general public (like anyone) but that is for indictable offences only.
For example, you could not arrest for (most) public order offences etc etc.
I'm not doubting the professionalism of service police but they have no more powers than Joe Public over the travelling fraternity (or anyone else).
I can see the potential for some rather big problems.
Stop try to divert, that is not the point I am making as you well know, there are service personnel well versed in law and police training which you stated was not the case.
My point is the army could be used to bolster police numbers in spacific cases like raiding camps of thieves, the whole we do not have the manpower to act is just a smokescreen for the lack of political will
La Liga said:
t's not a case of granting, it a case of a few anecdotes / experiences don't entitle you to state that the 'majority almost certainly commit crime daily' (paraphrasing).
You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
What’s flawed in regard to the daily crimes ? An encampment is a hub of unrestrained criminal activity it’s what they learn to do from an early age.You're talking about (if the upper estimates are correct) hundreds of thousands of people.
How do you not see how obviously flawed that 'logic' is?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th August 07:36
eccles said:
I am not advocating using the army to do the police's job but to aid them on specific tasks where they claim they do not have the manpower.
No wonder this country is in such a s
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