Police Officer killed on duty

[wc98]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Nice to see positive hand in pockets contributions to the tragedy as opposed to the knee-jerk reactions I've just read in the last few pages.

Army policing civilians, hanging, shooting, flogging, locking up forever, internment without trial, failure to adhere to due process and rule of law. All nonsense and none of which fits with living in a modern Western democracy.

All we need is a properly funded sufficiently manned and resourced police force and prosecution service enforcing an unchanged justice system to ensure all crimes committed by all sectors of society are methodically and camly investigated with suspects being identified, evidence collected and brought to bear against said suspects resulting in a successfull prosecution.

i believe the people involved in this case are being investigated exactly like that. let's hope your faith in the justice system prevails.

a question for those in the force commenting, if the people in custody at the moment refuse to name the driver, could they be charged with perverting the course of justice ?

i have to say i am concerned at what the outcome will be here. a good few years a neighbour of a good friend of mine and her husband were hit head on by a van allegedly driven by someone known to like a drink. his background is similar to that suggested for the people involved in this case.

he legged it, leaving them in the wreckage , injuries sustained by both left them unable to work again, one paralysed from the neck down.

his story was he sold the van to a traveler the day before the accident, and nothing ever happened to him.

[Tannedbaldhead]

wc98 said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

Nice to see positive hand in pockets contributions to the tragedy as opposed to the knee-jerk reactions I've just read in the last few pages.

Army policing civilians, hanging, shooting, flogging, locking up forever, internment without trial, failure to adhere to due process and rule of law. All nonsense and none of which fits with living in a modern Western democracy.

All we need is a properly funded sufficiently manned and resourced police force and prosecution service enforcing an unchanged justice system to ensure all crimes committed by all sectors of society are methodically and camly investigated with suspects being identified, evidence collected and brought to bear against said suspects resulting in a successfull prosecution.

i believe the people involved in this case are being investigated exactly like that. let's hope your faith in the justice system prevails.

My faith in the system and it's ability to prevail is badly shaken at the moment due to understaffing and lack of sufficient resourcing.
I think they will bring to justice the perpetrators of this particular crime as they will throw the kitchen sink at it.
What they need, however, is to be able to throw similar resources at burglaries rather than plunging the victims an emailed crime number.

[anonymous-user]

I've had 20 years in construction hire and had many experiences with the travelling community. Every interaction was negative. Stealing in broad daylight and when challenged threatened etc etc. Member of staff hit with a lump hammer, no prosecution just excuses from police that unbelievably the offender was having a bad day in mitigation... yes he was trying to steal a safe from a lockup unit and our man got in the way..
The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.
However, you shouldn't join up thinking that you can just avoid these types and focus on the less risky.
The extremely brave officer who lost his life was a standout.

[Red 4]

1974nc said:

The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.

Utter nonsense.

I think you underestimate the level of violence that is directed towards many officers on a regular basis - not just by travellers.

My experience - deal with (some) travellers on their own or in a small group and, although you are unlikely to get a straight answer, they are not that confrontational or aggressive.
Deal with them on "their own turf" or in a large group and problems are likely to arise.

If police are so scared of dealing with travellers then how do you explain so many of them being incarcerated ?

[Bigends]

wc98 said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

Nice to see positive hand in pockets contributions to the tragedy as opposed to the knee-jerk reactions I've just read in the last few pages.

Army policing civilians, hanging, shooting, flogging, locking up forever, internment without trial, failure to adhere to due process and rule of law. All nonsense and none of which fits with living in a modern Western democracy.

All we need is a properly funded sufficiently manned and resourced police force and prosecution service enforcing an unchanged justice system to ensure all crimes committed by all sectors of society are methodically and camly investigated with suspects being identified, evidence collected and brought to bear against said suspects resulting in a successfull prosecution.

i believe the people involved in this case are being investigated exactly like that. let's hope your faith in the justice system prevails.

a question for those in the force commenting, if the people in custody at the moment refuse to name the driver, could they be charged with perverting the course of justice ?

i have to say i am concerned at what the outcome will be here. a good few years a neighbour of a good friend of mine and her husband were hit head on by a van allegedly driven by someone known to like a drink. his background is similar to that suggested for the people involved in this case.

he legged it, leaving them in the wreckage , injuries sustained by both left them unable to work again, one paralysed from the neck down.

his story was he sold the van to a traveler the day before the accident, and nothing ever happened to him.

None of them are obliged to name the driver or answer any questions put to them

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

1974nc said:

The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.

Utter nonsense.

I think you underestimate the level of violence that is directed towards many officers on a regular basis - not just by travellers.

My experience - deal with (some) travellers on their own or in a small group and, although you are unlikely to get a straight answer, they are not that confrontational or aggressive.
Deal with them on "their own turf" or in a large group and problems are likely to arise.

If police are so scared of dealing with travellers then how do you explain so many of them being incarcerated ?

I could also mention that i worked pretty closely with the police for 4 years recovering stolen vehicles and can only speak of what my personal experience is.
The police would routinely ask our operative to enter traveller camps on the promise of backup on site to recover stolen goods. 9 times out of 10 back up never arrived and we had to leave the scene.

Our guys would be urged to enter alone by the control room telling them it would be ok...

[Red 4]

1974nc said:

Red 4 said:

1974nc said:

The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.

Utter nonsense.

I think you underestimate the level of violence that is directed towards many officers on a regular basis - not just by travellers.

My experience - deal with (some) travellers on their own or in a small group and, although you are unlikely to get a straight answer, they are not that confrontational or aggressive.
Deal with them on "their own turf" or in a large group and problems are likely to arise.

If police are so scared of dealing with travellers then how do you explain so many of them being incarcerated ?

I could also mention that i worked pretty closely with the police for 4 years recovering stolen vehicles and can only speak of what my personal experience is.
The police would routinely ask our operative to enter traveller camps on the promise of backup on site to recover stolen goods. 9 times out of 10 back up never arrived and we had to leave the scene.

Our guys would be urged to enter alone by the control room telling them it would be ok...

That is a completely different scenario to the one you quoted in your earlier post (and referred to as gospel).

Like I said - deal with travellers on a site or encampment and you are more likely to encounter problems.

I think the recovery agent was wise not to enter alone and he should have been escorted by the police.

Saying police are scared to stop travellers for motoring matters is plainly wrong though IME - I potted more than a few.

[Taylor James]

Red 4 said:

Taylor James said:

The question wasn't addressed to you. Your opinion doesn't interest me. I don't engage with people who can't post in a civil manner and this reply is just to help you understand that.

You wouldn't be much use engaging with travellers then.

Still, keep your solutions coming.

And while you're at it perhaps you should go and raid the magic money tree - like Boris - and solve all the country's woes. (Except you won't because the police, courts and prisons are in meltdown and there is no real political will to solve "The traveller problem". )

I certainly wouldn't.

Try reading my posts and you'll see I pin the blame chiefly on a failure of leadership and lack of political will.

There'll be a huge furore for a few weeks because this involves the tragic death of a Police Officer and then it will all die down again.

I dread seeing what harassment his widow undergoes should there be charges and it had better not be tolerated. I hope she is better protected than Richard Osborn-Brooks and his wife, who cannot even return to their home.

[anonymous-user]

Red 4 said:

That is a completely different scenario to the one you quoted in your earlier post (and referred to as gospel).

Like I said - deal with travellers on a site or encampment and you are more likely to encounter problems.

I think the recovery agent was wise not to enter alone and he should have been escorted by the police.

Saying police are scared to stop travellers for motoring matters is plainly wrong though IME - I potted more than a few.

I have been stopped a couple of cars behind a Police car when travellers blocked a main road to hold a horse and cart race. This was at 5.30pm on a weekday. The Police officer did nothing. We then effectively had a rolling road block with a Transit van in the middle of the road behind the racing horses. A car got a bit fed up of this and tried overtaking the Transit, which violently swerved at the. Again, nothing from the Police car. We then had to follow this procession to a motorway roundabout, which they managed to block off so they could race round and back the way they had come. Yet again, the Police car ignored this and drove off towards town. Absolute joke.

[FiF]

Red 4 said:

1974nc said:

Red 4 said:

1974nc said:

The problem wether it's denied or not can be encapsulated in an example situation -
Joe bloggs is stopped for traffic offence, he could get a lecture, sarcasm or whatever the officers want to say to him and he has to apologise and hope for the best
Traveller is stopped for traffic offence and officers are likely to get a serious beating if they say a word out of line if the guy even deigns to stop in the first place.
I can see why the police don't want to take them on, as at the end of the day you don't go to work to get beaten up.

Utter nonsense.

I think you underestimate the level of violence that is directed towards many officers on a regular basis - not just by travellers.

My experience - deal with (some) travellers on their own or in a small group and, although you are unlikely to get a straight answer, they are not that confrontational or aggressive.
Deal with them on "their own turf" or in a large group and problems are likely to arise.

If police are so scared of dealing with travellers then how do you explain so many of them being incarcerated ?

I could also mention that i worked pretty closely with the police for 4 years recovering stolen vehicles and can only speak of what my personal experience is.
The police would routinely ask our operative to enter traveller camps on the promise of backup on site to recover stolen goods. 9 times out of 10 back up never arrived and we had to leave the scene.

Our guys would be urged to enter alone by the control room telling them it would be ok...

That is a completely different scenario to the one you quoted in your earlier post (and referred to as gospel).

Like I said - deal with travellers on a site or encampment and you are more likely to encounter problems.

I think the recovery agent was wise not to enter alone and he should have been escorted by the police.

Saying police are scared to stop travellers for motoring matters is plainly wrong though IME - I potted more than a few.

I think it depends on location and how much backup either party can command. Certainly I've seen a single crewed traffic stop of a single Transit and caravan turn into an A road blocked very rapidly by a posse of Transits and occupants surrounding the original protagonists and outnumbering the officer by twenty to one, at least. Maybe the roads policing guy didn't know or forgot the half dozen encampments less than a mile down the road.

To me if travellers are over represented in the prison population then it's a reasonable inference to think that as a subset of society they commit, are prosecuted and found guilty of more than their fair share of offences which warrant a custodial sentence. The data to back this up isn't available for all sorts of reasons but imo it's a reasonable inference.

The real problem is dealing with their MO and lifestyle, particularly the ability to disappear into the traveller ether when things get a bit hot. Couple that with the tightness of the community, them Vs RoW, no confidential informants plus the general argumentative aggressive don't give a stuff attitudes. Stating the obvious unfortunately.

How to deal with that? Many rely on the benefits from society when it suits eg healthcare but not willing to put in the money which pays for them. So why not some sort of qualification identity docs?

Incidentally it's not just our set of lovable scamps. Trying living and working in an environment where you have to deal with Finnish gypsies. Now they make our lot look like angels.

[Red 4]

Taylor James said:

Try reading my posts and you'll see I pin the blame chiefly on a failure of leadership and lack of political will.

There'll be a huge furore for a few weeks because this involves the tragic death of a Police Officer and then it will all die down again.

I dread seeing what harassment his widow undergoes should there be charges and it had better not be tolerated. I hope she is better protected than Richard Osborn-Brooks and his wife, who cannot even return to their home.

Well, on your first two points we agree.

I don't follow your reasoning about PC Harper's wife being harassed though.

She was not a witness to the events and is unlikely to play a part in any legal proceedings.

Edited by Red 4 on Monday 19th August 17:25

[Phil Dicky]

Thames Valley must have some decent evidence linking al 10 to this sickening crime, as a Magistrates extension isn't easy to obtain, so fingers crossed for quite a few charges and certainly no bail.

[GTI16V]

I don't tend to post on here much, but I felt compelled to given how awful this whole incident is.
While I'm not with the "String em up" brigade re the death penalty, those involved are -and we can all speculate who that may be -absolute scum and deserve to spend the rest of their lives behind bars.
In an awful week for our boys and girls in blue I think this incident might prove to a tipping point in public - and hopefully - political opinion on what we are prepared to tolerate from criminals.
On a final word, wasn't the statement from PC Harper's father was utterly hearbreaking?

[wc98]

Bigends said:

None of them are obliged to name the driver or answer any questions put to them

i thought that might be the case,sadly.

[Petrus1983]

Phil Dicky said:

Thames Valley must have some decent evidence linking al 10 to this sickening crime, as a Magistrates extension isn't easy to obtain, so fingers crossed for quite a few charges and certainly no bail.

Any news from post the 36 hour extension that must have elapsed by now? Or just too worried to say “released pending further enquiries”?

[Greendubber]

Petrus1983 said:

Phil Dicky said:

Thames Valley must have some decent evidence linking al 10 to this sickening crime, as a Magistrates extension isn't easy to obtain, so fingers crossed for quite a few charges and certainly no bail.

Any news from post the 36 hour extension that must have elapsed by now? Or just too worried to say “released pending further enquiries”?

Further extension granted

[rscott]

Grahamdub said:

I have been stopped a couple of cars behind a Police car when travellers blocked a main road to hold a horse and cart race. This was at 5.30pm on a weekday. The Police officer did nothing. We then effectively had a rolling road block with a Transit van in the middle of the road behind the racing horses. A car got a bit fed up of this and tried overtaking the Transit, which violently swerved at the. Again, nothing from the Police car. We then had to follow this procession to a motorway roundabout, which they managed to block off so they could race round and back the way they had come. Yet again, the Police car ignored this and drove off towards town. Absolute joke.

Presumably a single crewed car? If backup wasn't available, I'm not surprised they didn't get involved.

[anonymous-user]

I have a nasty feeling that this may not end up in a murder conviction.
I am not posting this to be awkward or difficult. I just have a genuine nasty feeling that It's slipping away and it's going to be downscaled to an assault or something

[anonymous-user]

rscott said:

Presumably a single crewed car? If backup wasn't available, I'm not surprised they didn't get involved.

We were held up for at least 20 minutes. Plenty of time to get back up.

[Bigends]

techiedave said:

I have a nasty feeling that this may not end up in a murder conviction.
I am not posting this to be awkward or difficult. I just have a genuine nasty feeling that It's slipping away and it's going to be downscaled to an assault or something

Thanes Valley police will be throwing the kitchen sink at this enquiry. They wont want to see any of the suspects released on bail or under investigation even if it means charging with other matters not connected to this incident. If theres nothing to connect any of them with the officers death - as I posted earlier they could just finish up with Burglary or conspiracy to burgle charges.