If shenanigans in the House lead to a General Election
Poll: If shenanigans in the House lead to a General Election
Total Members Polled: 448
Discussion
El stovey said:
Lily the Pink said:
eldar said:
This is different, in that Brexit is a symptom, not really important. It doesn’t matter what happens.
The problem is the country is divided, deeply and long term. Political parties are becoming irrelevant and slowly dying, being replaced by single issue pressure groups.
The two sides won’t get along, the squabbling will continue and increase, the two sides are equally balanced and infected by extremists, any vaguely Brexit discussion ends in shouting, insults and bad feeling.
Classic lose/lose. Fun to watch the fighting, though.
I agree with that. All except your last sentence.The problem is the country is divided, deeply and long term. Political parties are becoming irrelevant and slowly dying, being replaced by single issue pressure groups.
The two sides won’t get along, the squabbling will continue and increase, the two sides are equally balanced and infected by extremists, any vaguely Brexit discussion ends in shouting, insults and bad feeling.
Classic lose/lose. Fun to watch the fighting, though.
Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways. It’s like religion or politics or masturbating etc. People just don’t talk about it.
There was a bit of discussion pre and post referendum but now everyone’s totally fed up with it. Even on social media my Facebook friends don’t mention it at all. It’s just not that important.
otolith said:
Troubleatmill said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
just can't believe this logic...how can this be seen as more important than health, education, pensions, defence...
Get Brexit over the line and lots of time to address all of the above. 
98elise said:
El stovey said:
Lily the Pink said:
eldar said:
This is different, in that Brexit is a symptom, not really important. It doesn’t matter what happens.
The problem is the country is divided, deeply and long term. Political parties are becoming irrelevant and slowly dying, being replaced by single issue pressure groups.
The two sides won’t get along, the squabbling will continue and increase, the two sides are equally balanced and infected by extremists, any vaguely Brexit discussion ends in shouting, insults and bad feeling.
Classic lose/lose. Fun to watch the fighting, though.
I agree with that. All except your last sentence.The problem is the country is divided, deeply and long term. Political parties are becoming irrelevant and slowly dying, being replaced by single issue pressure groups.
The two sides won’t get along, the squabbling will continue and increase, the two sides are equally balanced and infected by extremists, any vaguely Brexit discussion ends in shouting, insults and bad feeling.
Classic lose/lose. Fun to watch the fighting, though.
Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways. It’s like religion or politics or masturbating etc. People just don’t talk about it.
There was a bit of discussion pre and post referendum but now everyone’s totally fed up with it. Even on social media my Facebook friends don’t mention it at all. It’s just not that important.
MC Bodge said:
Agreed. Which is another reason why it is such a shame that it is still happening. A very big chunk of the people do not care that much about it and there is really little in the way of genuine reason for the country to leave the EU, despite a fairly small number of very noisy, often grumpy, leave "enthusiasts" on Internet forums.
which are balanced out by a number of very noisy often grumpy types from the other side on internet forums One cancels the other out
El stovey said:
Is it really divided? Outside PHs or the news, do you have arguments about brexit at work or with your friends or with people in the pub?
Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways.
It's best not to conflate silence with acquiescence.Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways.
If nobody was interested any more, how do you explain the polls showing the support for the Brexit Party? How do you explain the resurgence of the Lib Dems? How do you explain, in fact, how four political parties are all neck and neck in the polls?
No matter which side of the argument you are on, this is going to rumble on for generations. fn Brexit doesn't happen the Brexiteers certainly won't shut up now that they've come so close to their dream.
If Brexit does happen then the remain side will not shut up, and at the very least will wait until the next election before kicking off again.
Once we have that election, whenever it comes, the political balance in the HOC will change. If we haven't left the EU by then and a more pro-EU parliament is in a majority, we won;t be leaving period. Or not until after the next election anyway... Then the matter will kick off again.
If we have left the EU by then and a pro-EU parliamentary majority exists, I doubt that we would be aiming to rejoin (although I could be wrong on that of course). But we almost certainly would want to rejoin the SM or the CU or both, and that of course would take the matter to a fight in the election after that.
On the other hand, if the parliamentary majority after the next election favours the ERG end of the spectrum, the whole thing will get reopened again because the act of leaving would not have been brexity enough for them. At the very least the pro-EU end of the political market will be sharpening their knives about that for the election after that.
And so on, until all of us are dead and a new generation starts arguing the toss over it.
I believe Call Me Dave said that one downside of calling the referendum is that "it could release demons." Welcome to the future...
rs1952 said:
El stovey said:
Is it really divided? Outside PHs or the news, do you have arguments about brexit at work or with your friends or with people in the pub?
Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways.
It's best not to conflate silence with acquiescence.Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways.
If nobody was interested any more, how do you explain the polls showing the support for the Brexit Party? How do you explain the resurgence of the Lib Dems? How do you explain, in fact, how four political parties are all neck and neck in the polls?
No matter which side of the argument you are on, this is going to rumble on for generations. fn Brexit doesn't happen the Brexiteers certainly won't shut up now that they've come so close to their dream.
If Brexit does happen then the remain side will not shut up, and at the very least will wait until the next election before kicking off again.
Once we have that election, whenever it comes, the political balance in the HOC will change. If we haven't left the EU by then and a more pro-EU parliament is in a majority, we won;t be leaving period. Or not until after the next election anyway... Then the matter will kick off again.
If we have left the EU by then and a pro-EU parliamentary majority exists, I doubt that we would be aiming to rejoin (although I could be wrong on that of course). But we almost certainly would want to rejoin the SM or the CU or both, and that of course would take the matter to a fight in the election after that.
On the other hand, if the parliamentary majority after the next election favours the ERG end of the spectrum, the whole thing will get reopened again because the act of leaving would not have been brexity enough for them. At the very least the pro-EU end of the political market will be sharpening their knives about that for the election after that.
And so on, until all of us are dead and a new generation starts arguing the toss over it.
I believe Call Me Dave said that one downside of calling the referendum is that "it could release demons." Welcome to the future...
If some poll company phoned me up about who I’d vote for or what I thought about brexit, I’d answer, it doesn’t mean I’m that bothered about it though.
It certainly doesn’t mean there’s “deep divisions”. Brexit hasn’t happened yet and nothing much has happened. If there were deep divisions I’d expect much more of an outcry about it.
If the government weasels out of brexit with a May type deal. I expect most people would just be glad it’s over.
Troubleatmill said:
You seem to be one of our more Brexitly challenged contributors. It will be fine.
I expect I will be fine. I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
otolith said:
I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
Presumably in your world, any negative developments (relative to what - the rEU ?) will be "because Brexit", whereas any positive ones will be "despite Brexit". Is that right ?Lily the Pink said:
otolith said:
I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
Presumably in your world, any negative developments (relative to what - the rEU ?) will be "because Brexit", whereas any positive ones will be "despite Brexit". Is that right ?otolith said:
I think it should be pretty bloody obvious - though I expect the faithful will have excuses at the ready. Rather like socialism, it will be someone else’s fault when it goes to hell.
It won't go wrong it's going to be glorious.https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
El stovey said:
Is it really divided? Outside PHs or the news, do you have arguments about brexit at work or with your friends or with people in the pub?
Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways. It’s like religion or politics or masturbating etc. People just don’t talk about it.
There was a bit of discussion pre and post referendum but now everyone’s totally fed up with it. Even on social media my Facebook friends don’t mention it at all. It’s just not that important.
Indeed, most appear fed up with Brexit, but that seems to be fear of starting arguments. People have strong feelings for and against, just no desire to start a hysterical debate. Nobody I know ever talks about brexit at all anymore, in a for or against way. Obviously it creates practical problems and planning issues to mitigate against but people I know aren’t divided about it or arguing about it despite probably voting in different ways. It’s like religion or politics or masturbating etc. People just don’t talk about it.
There was a bit of discussion pre and post referendum but now everyone’s totally fed up with it. Even on social media my Facebook friends don’t mention it at all. It’s just not that important.
That is the problem, the resentment, anger and fear are swept under the carpet. Religion and politics are minor stuff compared to this.
Established politicians are simply out of touch in their little bubbles. The more extreme left and right are devouring them.
No established politicians took trump seriously until he’d got them by the balls.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:otolith said:
I think it should be pretty bloody obvious - though I expect the faithful will have excuses at the ready. Rather like socialism, it will be someone else’s fault when it goes to hell.
It won't go wrong it's going to be glorious.https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/
That seems about as plausible as the “dad, that rat tasted funny” meme.
I think a recession, social unrest and then a hard left government freed from EU restrictions on pointing at things and nationalising them is more likely.
otolith said:
I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
S'cuse me...I probably belong to that demographic that voted for "it." But I voted the other way. None of this is in my name.
Don't tar us all with the brush of "the dopes that voted for Brexit"
rs1952 said:
otolith said:
I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
S'cuse me...I probably belong to that demographic that voted for "it." But I voted the other way. None of this is in my name.
Don't tar us all with the brush of "the dopes that voted for Brexit"
Not that being a dope is inextricably linked to voting either for or against Brexit.
rs1952 said:
otolith said:
I sincerely hope that the negative consequences are directed towards the demographics who wanted it. If tax receipts fall, pensions and regional spending should take the brunt.
S'cuse me...I probably belong to that demographic that voted for "it." But I voted the other way. None of this is in my name.
Don't tar us all with the brush of "the dopes that voted for Brexit"
Isn't some of this "division" just actually meaningful politics?
Since 1990 the two main parties have been pretty much identical in terms of ideology and meaningful policies and have only really differentiated themselves on grounds of managerial competence.
While the idea of competent government free of ideology might sound appealing it failed pretty well immediately on both fronts.
It is/was highly ideological, with a utopian vision of a globalised, multicultural world where nations are football teams and culture is restaurants. In everything else we are, depending on the spin, global citizens - equally valuable individual human beings, or equally worthless units of labour to be shifted around, repurposed or replaced as required.
There's a noble enough, humanist impulse behind this and an economic logic but it most definitely is ideological and this became clear during the Maastricht civil war in the Tory party.
Secondly they were not competent. From the ERM failure to the 2008 crisis by way of the single currency and the associated economic slump in much of Europe leading to the monumental debt and demographically driven pensions hole we have now they haven't covered themselves in glory in economic terms. Meanwhile if the messy break up of Yugoslavia wasn't enough, the idiotic invasion of Iraq and it's still unfolding consequences should have been the final nail in the coffin of Bush Snr's New World Order on geopolitical grounds.
The voters started telling them so and they could have listened. Instead like all true ideologues seeing their plans fail they double down and demand more of what isn't working.
Well, now they have an opposition. Not another colour rosette and a fresh face saying the same thing in a different way, but an actual opposing ideology which says that our existing nation states are a good forum for democracy and should have a future, that culture and traditions are more than themes for restaurants and that countries are not profit maximising corporations called things like "UK Plc" whose over riding policy objective is always greater GDP.
Of course it's divisive because people actually disagree about what to do and how to do it, rather than just bickering over who should be doing it, with trivial differences of emphasis.
There's no reason we can't do this in a democratic framework with mutual respect for different views. The peaceful resolution of serious differences is the entire basis of democracy.
We had a huge exercise in this in 2016 when the entire country debated the issue for months on end, more comprehensively than I can remember any other issue ever being discussed in this country. We then had a vote of around 34 million people under the existing and well established rules of British elections.
That IMO, is when the truly nasty divisiveness started, because a hardcore of militant globalists who were accustomed to getting their own way suddenly didn't. The people must be mistaken, misled by Putin or Murdoch, duped by simplistic answers from Farage and Johnson or whipped into a frenzy of fear by lies on Facebook. They couldn't actually just disagree unless they were old, stupid or racist; and most likely all three.
Fortunately however as I see it this nasty divisive rhetoric is from a very small number of people, although very loud given how over represented such views are in parliament, the civil service and the BBC. They claim to speak for 16.4 million voters or 48%, but in my experience the vast majority of those who voted Remain did so with no love for the EU, but rather out of an unwillingness to rock the boat and a mistrust of the loudest champions of leaving.
These bitter loons speak for nobody but themselves and stand for nothing but their insane project. They are small in number and will fade away far quicker than the low IQ gammons they have been willing to die for 3.5 years.
It's no good for a small minority to pretend they are listening and carry on as before. May tried this. Nor is it any good trying to "unify" us all behind Rory Stewart or some such character, and pretend the referendum never happened and everything is just fine. And calling repeat polls until we get the result desired by this small group will never undo the first result.
Brexit has found a meaningful division in modern Britain and it will not go away.
Since 1990 the two main parties have been pretty much identical in terms of ideology and meaningful policies and have only really differentiated themselves on grounds of managerial competence.
While the idea of competent government free of ideology might sound appealing it failed pretty well immediately on both fronts.
It is/was highly ideological, with a utopian vision of a globalised, multicultural world where nations are football teams and culture is restaurants. In everything else we are, depending on the spin, global citizens - equally valuable individual human beings, or equally worthless units of labour to be shifted around, repurposed or replaced as required.
There's a noble enough, humanist impulse behind this and an economic logic but it most definitely is ideological and this became clear during the Maastricht civil war in the Tory party.
Secondly they were not competent. From the ERM failure to the 2008 crisis by way of the single currency and the associated economic slump in much of Europe leading to the monumental debt and demographically driven pensions hole we have now they haven't covered themselves in glory in economic terms. Meanwhile if the messy break up of Yugoslavia wasn't enough, the idiotic invasion of Iraq and it's still unfolding consequences should have been the final nail in the coffin of Bush Snr's New World Order on geopolitical grounds.
The voters started telling them so and they could have listened. Instead like all true ideologues seeing their plans fail they double down and demand more of what isn't working.
Well, now they have an opposition. Not another colour rosette and a fresh face saying the same thing in a different way, but an actual opposing ideology which says that our existing nation states are a good forum for democracy and should have a future, that culture and traditions are more than themes for restaurants and that countries are not profit maximising corporations called things like "UK Plc" whose over riding policy objective is always greater GDP.
Of course it's divisive because people actually disagree about what to do and how to do it, rather than just bickering over who should be doing it, with trivial differences of emphasis.
There's no reason we can't do this in a democratic framework with mutual respect for different views. The peaceful resolution of serious differences is the entire basis of democracy.
We had a huge exercise in this in 2016 when the entire country debated the issue for months on end, more comprehensively than I can remember any other issue ever being discussed in this country. We then had a vote of around 34 million people under the existing and well established rules of British elections.
That IMO, is when the truly nasty divisiveness started, because a hardcore of militant globalists who were accustomed to getting their own way suddenly didn't. The people must be mistaken, misled by Putin or Murdoch, duped by simplistic answers from Farage and Johnson or whipped into a frenzy of fear by lies on Facebook. They couldn't actually just disagree unless they were old, stupid or racist; and most likely all three.
Fortunately however as I see it this nasty divisive rhetoric is from a very small number of people, although very loud given how over represented such views are in parliament, the civil service and the BBC. They claim to speak for 16.4 million voters or 48%, but in my experience the vast majority of those who voted Remain did so with no love for the EU, but rather out of an unwillingness to rock the boat and a mistrust of the loudest champions of leaving.
These bitter loons speak for nobody but themselves and stand for nothing but their insane project. They are small in number and will fade away far quicker than the low IQ gammons they have been willing to die for 3.5 years.
It's no good for a small minority to pretend they are listening and carry on as before. May tried this. Nor is it any good trying to "unify" us all behind Rory Stewart or some such character, and pretend the referendum never happened and everything is just fine. And calling repeat polls until we get the result desired by this small group will never undo the first result.
Brexit has found a meaningful division in modern Britain and it will not go away.
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