Lets help Boris out, PH solutions to the backstop

[anonymous-user]

Halmyre said:

First off, the name. Backstop is so negative. Change it to Forwardstart.

Then, sell the Republic of Ireland to the US. They will build a wall and get Northern Ireland to pay for it.

Or sell Northern Ireland, everyone becomes dual/tricitizens. Ireland can take up discussions with the United States over what kind of border it wants.

Located in Carrickfergus, or near it, is the Andrew Jackson ancestral home. Andrew Jackson is President Trump's political hero. Also has some nice golf courses there.

More seriously, in all these discussions, the people of Northern Ireland have been unrepresented; the Ulster MPs in Westminster do not represent the views of anyone who supports the Alliance Party, SDLP, or even the Ulster Unionists, let alone SF. SF are in a position where they don't really want Brexit to happen, but if it does, they want it as destructive, disruptive, full watchtowers, as possible, because that helps them.Anyone who has lived in NI (I have) knows only the locals know the reality (a favourite word from both Traditions) on the ground. So the solution is not going to be found in London, Berlin, Brussels, or even in Dublin.There probably isn't time now, but this would have been an example of where a Citizen's Assembly could have bee used; a relatively simple question (what to do about the border), seperated from all of the other complexities of the WA, bypass the traditional party structures in NI, who all have their own ulterior motivations, and appeal to that bell curve middle of Northern Irish society, who are very sensible, pragmatic people. The two main parties in NI have let their people down in various ways. Anything out of the Assembly would of course have been only a recommendation to Parliament, but it disarms the mock patriotism displayed by some MPs, who feign concern for Northern Ireland, but who have never stepped foot there. The DUP will of course be alarmed, and would see this as an inevitable precursor to a border poll. But they know what to do to avoid that; do what they should have done in March, and support the WA.

[JuniorD]

MX5Biologist said:

Halmyre said:

First off, the name. Backstop is so negative. Change it to Forwardstart.

Then, sell the Republic of Ireland to the US. They will build a wall and get Northern Ireland to pay for it.

Or sell Northern Ireland, everyone becomes dual/tricitizens. Ireland can take up discussions with the United States over what kind of border it wants.

Located in Carrickfergus, or near it, is the Andrew Jackson ancestral home. Andrew Jackson is President Trump's political hero. Also has some nice golf courses there.

More seriously, in all these discussions, the people of Northern Ireland have been unrepresented; the Ulster MPs in Westminster do not represent the views of anyone who supports the Alliance Party, SDLP, or even the Ulster Unionists, let alone SF. SF are in a position where they don't really want Brexit to happen, but if it does, they want it as destructive, disruptive, full watchtowers, as possible, because that helps them.Anyone who has lived in NI (I have) knows only the locals know the reality (a favourite word from both Traditions) on the ground. So the solution is not going to be found in London, Berlin, Brussels, or even in Dublin.There probably isn't time now, but this would have been an example of where a Citizen's Assembly could have bee used; a relatively simple question (what to do about the border), seperated from all of the other complexities of the WA, bypass the traditional party structures in NI, who all have their own ulterior motivations, and appeal to that bell curve middle of Northern Irish society, who are very sensible, pragmatic people. The two main parties in NI have let their people down in various ways. Anything out of the Assembly would of course have been only a recommendation to Parliament, but it disarms the mock patriotism displayed by some MPs, who feign concern for Northern Ireland, but who have never stepped foot there. The DUP will of course be alarmed, and would see this as an inevitable precursor to a border poll. But they know what to do to avoid that; do what they should have done in March, and support the WA.

Good post.

A large proportion of people in NI seemed excited about the possibility of NI having one foot in the UK and one in the EU, which would have made the region of great strategic and economic importance. However the potential benefits this would deliver to the whole population did not fit the DUP's personal agenda of fking things up for everyone to ensure political relevance.

[s2art]

Apply to Canada for the UK to become a province, as Newfoundland did.Then the new superCanada would have CETA and NAFTA.

[Reciprocating mass]

Perhaps Borris can advise people to do some work during the day and play during the evening instead of spending there whole time arguing the same old st over and over again on a motoring forum with obviously nothing better to do.

[anonymous-user]

JuniorD said:

MX5Biologist said:

Halmyre said:

First off, the name. Backstop is so negative. Change it to Forwardstart.

Then, sell the Republic of Ireland to the US. They will build a wall and get Northern Ireland to pay for it.

Or sell Northern Ireland, everyone becomes dual/tricitizens. Ireland can take up discussions with the United States over what kind of border it wants.

Located in Carrickfergus, or near it, is the Andrew Jackson ancestral home. Andrew Jackson is President Trump's political hero. Also has some nice golf courses there.

More seriously, in all these discussions, the people of Northern Ireland have been unrepresented; the Ulster MPs in Westminster do not represent the views of anyone who supports the Alliance Party, SDLP, or even the Ulster Unionists, let alone SF. SF are in a position where they don't really want Brexit to happen, but if it does, they want it as destructive, disruptive, full watchtowers, as possible, because that helps them.Anyone who has lived in NI (I have) knows only the locals know the reality (a favourite word from both Traditions) on the ground. So the solution is not going to be found in London, Berlin, Brussels, or even in Dublin.There probably isn't time now, but this would have been an example of where a Citizen's Assembly could have bee used; a relatively simple question (what to do about the border), seperated from all of the other complexities of the WA, bypass the traditional party structures in NI, who all have their own ulterior motivations, and appeal to that bell curve middle of Northern Irish society, who are very sensible, pragmatic people. The two main parties in NI have let their people down in various ways. Anything out of the Assembly would of course have been only a recommendation to Parliament, but it disarms the mock patriotism displayed by some MPs, who feign concern for Northern Ireland, but who have never stepped foot there. The DUP will of course be alarmed, and would see this as an inevitable precursor to a border poll. But they know what to do to avoid that; do what they should have done in March, and support the WA.

Good post.

A large proportion of people in NI seemed excited about the possibility of NI having one foot in the UK and one in the EU, which would have made the region of great strategic and economic importance. However the potential benefits this would deliver to the whole population did not fit the DUP's personal agenda of fking things up for everyone to ensure political relevance.

I only worked in Belfast for 6 years, but came away with the view that many middle of the road protestants were for years resistant to unification with the South, because they saw the Republic as dirt poor. As the Celtic Tiger grew, that view became more nuanced. Also, that viewing Unionism as a protestant phenomenom is incorrect. And Loyalism is nothing to do with obeying the law.... And one always had the suspicion that in some parts, not all polls were free and fair, given the pressure people had to vote one way or the other.

As for Irish Sea border; I got pulled by the Gard at Dublin airport because I was going to meet a friend from Taiwan, and my car had English plates. North and South, looking at the plates, you really don't know where people lived. A friend from Belfast lived in Dublin, but kept his car on NI plates, as the tax was cheaper. And the same up North I suppose, pre-Irish MOT days. Crossing by ferry from Dublin to Holyhead or Liverpool, never an issue, or paper checks. Got lost at the Freeport in Liverpool,.copper showed me the way out. Different matter Belfast to Stranraer; cars with men in were frequently stopped by the Scottish police and their papers checked. I drove, solo, in a MX5, so usually waived through,. That car was on NI plates. I was stopped by police, and asked where I was driving to (address in England) and what was the purpose of my visit (family, I'm English). This was pre-GFA. So there was a de facto border there for years, ie. certain Westminister MPs spouting off on the basis of ignorance. In NI, I would be frequently stopped at army checkpoints, in rush hour (Sandy Row was a shortcut for me), and asked to produce papers.

[Marcellus]

Vaud said:

banjowilly said:

That is a swing and a miss.

Indeed.

"Switzerland is part of the EU's Schengen area, so there are no passport checks required for entry. ... Border infrastructure and customs declarations are necessary, however, because Switzerland is not part of the EU's customs union or value added tax regime, which are separate from the single market."

I wouldn't describe it as a hard border though - it's pretty porous.

They used to not only stop good vehicles but also locals going shopping in France (where it is cheaper), I don't know if this is still the practice.

Both sides do stop and check 24/7, if you shop in Geneva and take back to France and they find it expect to pay duty and fine..... ask anyone who lives in the Alps and they'll know someone who has gone shopping in Ikea Geneva verses Ikea Lyon because it was cheaper but then got fined and paid duty!

[wisbech]

s2art said:

Apply to Canada for the UK to become a province, as Newfoundland did.Then the new superCanada would have CETA and NAFTA.

Ooh I like this one. We still keep the Queen, have a rational immigration policy, and can re-purpose Westminster for tourism with our MPs moving to Ottawa

[Murph7355]

frisbee said:

Just Sell the UK to Trump for $1.

As part of America we’ll get cheap petrol gas and peanut butter M&Ms.

That just about covers your value add to the UK, but what about the rest of the country?

And you think Boris can't strike a good deal. Pffffft.

[Murph7355]

dazwalsh said:

So bojo’s new 30 day limit laid out by merkel to come up with an alternative to the backstop got me thinking.....

The 30 day limit is useful for Boris' longer strategy more than anything else IMO.

If a VoNC happens before that expires, he can with some merit note that those calling for it are obviously against trying to get a deal. After all, he's got Merkel being all positive etc.

GE winner winner chicken dinner.

If the VoNC doesn't happen until after the 30 days, it's too late to stop Brexit with one. He fulfils his promise.

And if gets a deal through the house in that time, he's a hero, get it signed and done then look to get a GE called or (if that doesn't work - may not be the numbers) then crack on anyway and make a go of it.

[Hoofy]

Borghetto said:

Hoofy said:

I hope not. I've got a massive short GBP position.

A true patriot lol

I think a true patriot would want what's best for the country. I don't think anyone has enough money to change the direction of the FX markets.

[Foliage]

Make provisions to keep Northern Ireland in the EU, setup the border at the ferry terminals.

NI wanted to stay in anyway.

Edited by Foliage on Thursday 22 August 15:13

[KTF]

Foliage said:

Make provisions to keep Northern Ireland in the EU, setup the border at the ferry terminals.

NI wanted to stay in anyway.

Edited by Foliage on Thursday 22 August 15:13

Off you go and sell that to the DUP and report back.

[Gecko1978]

solution

A FTA on goods and services into the EU where origin of build for goods is the UK. This would mean meat farmed in the UK could go to the EU but we could not import meat from the US then export to the EU to undercut the EU. Apply logic to all goods (this is in effect reg alignment like a CU)

UK free to strike trade deals as it sees fit but not able to use that to export goods direct to EU undermining the FTA. So we could buy cheap American cars but not export them to the EU Tarrif free.

Irish citizens who hold an Irish passport free to work live in NI and the UK and vice versa. EU citizens free to work in the UK for 12 months visa free. at 12 months if not applied / granted a visa must leave and can only re apply 3 months later. Tourists both ways 180day esta style agreement.

[rfisher]

Money is the answer.

Emperor's new clothes are expensive.

The EU will deal but it will cost us a lot of money

NI will deal but it will cost us a lot of money.

If the total amount of money is less than a no deal then we will pay.

Otherwise it's no deal and an election sooner rather than later.

Liking Boris as pm so far.

He's on the happy tabs.

Hope he's stocked up on them so he doesn't run out any time soon.

[s2art]

Perhaps a bit left field, and it doesnt solve the Eire-N.I. border issue.but the DUP might like it, Is make N.I. a free port. OK that treats N.I. as different to GB, but then as we are considering setting up other free ports around the country it wouldnt be unique. So that would put the border on the N.I. or GB ports for export to GB and at the N.I. border with Eire but it wouldnt be the UK installing a hard border, in fact as a Free port there wouldnt be a tariff until it left N.I. Do wonders to the N.I. economy. Eire might not be best pleased.

[Marcellus]

Just watch the news and he appears to be taking the position of; The UK gov won’t be creating a border if the EU wants one they need to sort it.

[ArmaghMan]

EDLT said:

Just don't do anything. Lots of countries have thousands of miles of borders that are completely unguarded, why does Northern Ireland need a wall?

Because,
Boris has pledged that there will be no hard border in Northern Ireland. No physical infrastructure.

Anyone who is an EU citizen ca travel to ROI as a right.
They can then (if Boris keeps his pledge) cross the border as they see fit and hey presto they're in the UK.
What if they decide that NI is not for them? and decide to move to GB?
Arlene and her crew are determined that there can be no border down the Irish Sea so there can be no checks on the boats from Belfast to Liverpool, Larne to Stranraer etc.
So any EU citizen can gain access to mainland UK.

Boris decides to screw the DUP and enforce border checks at the ports and airports on travellers from NI.

Suddenly I'm a second class citizen in my own country. When NI nationalists feel like second class citizens things never end well. There's already an undercurrent in dissident republican activity.Who knows where that might end?

Much worse though, would be the fact that the Loyalist/ Unionists would feel betrayed. The loyalists and their political reps. have never had any real electoral success but the paramilitaries still run the protestant ghettos. It wouldn't take much to see them reactivate.

Just a thought....

[Blib]

I know nothing about anything. So, I'm perfectly qualified to report that a good friend of mine works on policy at the British Banking Federation.

Months ago he told me that we should tell the EU to do whatever they want at the border. We should do nothing and offer to do even less.

I've no idea if the above is any help on this thread?

[85Carrera]

banjowilly said:

GT03ROB said:

banjowilly said:

Or that Ireland will throw away its very identity to join us?

Yet dilute it's identity in the United States of Europe? It's identity is more of our isles than european.

By the way I'm joking about reunification.... whilst probably a more sensible solution it will never happen.

Setting aside the staggering arrogance of this, name one country that opted to merge with another to avoid a recession.

Austria?

[Mothersruin]

dazwalsh said:

So bojo’s new 30 day limit laid out by merkel to come up with an alternative to the backstop got me thinking. He could do with the collective power of PH to think of ways to get around that pesky backstop with some new ideas, so get your creative juices flowing!

Apart from a bespoke FTA between the ROI and the UK i cant think of anything that breaks the deadlock, and that idea will taste like a dogst sandwich to the EU.

Sorry to go back, I haven't had time to read up on the full meetings today. Why does Boris have to do anything within 30 days? We're leaving, surely it's up to the EU to come up with something?