Poll: Election 2019
Total Members Polled: 1601
Discussion
Digga said:
bloomen said:
All the choices are pitiful and all of them mean a generation of decay and degradation.
Get Jeremy and a bunch of clueless agitators who've never been anywhere near the real world have a whole country to play out their adolescent ideas.
Get Johnson and a bunch of clueless exploiters who otherwise would never have gotten within a billion miles of government get to insert their sweaty fantasies all the way up our rectums.
Meanwhile the actual adults are sniping from the sidelines. How'd it wind up like this?
All the choices have a whiff about them, but the key issue is economic. Labour will destroy the economy and, without that, all the promises of welfare in the world turn to dust.Get Jeremy and a bunch of clueless agitators who've never been anywhere near the real world have a whole country to play out their adolescent ideas.
Get Johnson and a bunch of clueless exploiters who otherwise would never have gotten within a billion miles of government get to insert their sweaty fantasies all the way up our rectums.
Meanwhile the actual adults are sniping from the sidelines. How'd it wind up like this?
It's a s
t choice, but where we are. I do not think there is a more pragmatic way of putting it.What if voters think brexit will be even more economically damaging than how they view labour’s economic plans?
When people are deciding on the least worst options, it’s all about which aspects they fear the most.
You think labour are the worst option due to their economic plan. Others might think brexit is going to be worse for the economy. Obviously there are other factors people identify with also.
kuro68k said:
amusingduck said:
Oh wonderful, finally somebody who can explain to me how that works. By what mechanism is the NHS going to be 'sold off', ditto preventing the NHS from sourcing drugs from non-US companies/forcing NHS to overpay? 
Well when we adopt US patent rules on medicine we can't just buy cheaper generic versions as we do now. That's what patents are for, to stop you doing that.Shocking that people don't understand basic stuff like this and are willingly going to destroy the best thing we have in this country because of it.
Of course the TTIP would have prevented legal action except that was a potential deal between the US and... the EU.
booboise blueboys said:
Johnson is a coward. Hiding in a fridge and looking like a complete mess. Why can't he smarten up?
Its a no from me and probably most of the country on Thursday.
You do not seem to be into discussing things do you.Its a no from me and probably most of the country on Thursday.
Just posting endless "statements" does not really contribute to the discussion does it.
kuro68k said:
They aren't giving away 10% of companies either, the rule will just be that over time they have to offer shares to staff and move towards that goal. It's worked extremely well in places like Germany.
In the 1970's maybe, but take a look at Germany rightnow; it's fked.A declining GDP and huge job losses, because the golden goose (the car industry) has been killed stone dead by the greens in their own government and the EU.
Job losses in the last few months alone: Audi, 9,500, Mercedes, 10,000.... etc. etc.
Why do the left cling to such outmoded ideals?
Bergs said:
I did something stupid last night, I entered into a debate with a labour supporter on social media.
Want to guess how it went?
I got called a racist and cruel before we'd even got 2 sentences in.. and they've since deleted their comments.
Have people lost the ability to have a proper debate without resorting to stereotyping and name calling? I feel like the whole thing has become toxic and I blame the 2 main parties for that - they've hardly behaved.
Have a read of the comments on the conservative facebook group if you've not already, look at the language used and the levels of bitterness and anger pointed at Tory supporters.
I wonder how they have the time to spend trolling as much as they do - I wish I had that much spare time.
I've commented on few posts with generally anti-Labour comments and woke up to a message from an old friend simply asking Want to guess how it went?
I got called a racist and cruel before we'd even got 2 sentences in.. and they've since deleted their comments.
Have people lost the ability to have a proper debate without resorting to stereotyping and name calling? I feel like the whole thing has become toxic and I blame the 2 main parties for that - they've hardly behaved.
Have a read of the comments on the conservative facebook group if you've not already, look at the language used and the levels of bitterness and anger pointed at Tory supporters.
I wonder how they have the time to spend trolling as much as they do - I wish I had that much spare time.
"you're not a Tory are you?"
Haven't been unfriended yet
TheRealNoNeedy said:
Looks like the pound is crashing with the news that a hung parliament is within the MRP margin of error
Step away from the keyboard.GBPEUR closed @ 1.186, and is B/O 1.1863 / 1.1865
The YoGov poll probably should have have pushed GBPEUR further, but reaction was really muted. Any GBPEUR downside pressure SHOULD also be coming from an inverted DCE19/Dec20 short sterling spread (and the rates market pricing in a 50% chance of BOE cut in 2020). It should'nt be trading at the highs it is. The market may well "be drinking its own Kool Aid or Bong Water" - but crashing it ain't.
Bookies have NO OVERALL Control @ 33% chance...
booboise blueboys said:
Johnson is a coward. Hiding in a fridge and looking like a complete mess. Why can't he smarten up?
Its a no from me and probably most of the country on Thursday.
I mean, I'm sure we're all shocked by this pronouncement given your posting history.Its a no from me and probably most of the country on Thursday.
In other breaking news: Jimboka not voting Tory.
kuro68k said:
I really hope Boris doesn't get a majority. Really dreading another 5+ years of this brexit st.
People need to look beyond brexit. Boris is a menace, and things like the NHS and our sovereignty are more important than brexit. Once the NHS is sold off and a bad deal done with the US it will be very, very hard to undo.
You might not like Labour but there will be another election in 5 years time when it can all be undone. Not so with brexit and a bad Boris deal.
Nobody is selling the NHS. Not now and not all the other times Labour have said it.t.People need to look beyond brexit. Boris is a menace, and things like the NHS and our sovereignty are more important than brexit. Once the NHS is sold off and a bad deal done with the US it will be very, very hard to undo.
You might not like Labour but there will be another election in 5 years time when it can all be undone. Not so with brexit and a bad Boris deal.
In 5 years we would have to go through another period of trying to fix a f
ked up economy only way worse.I don't know how you would undo expropriation of my assets without making the new owners give them back to me and compensating me for my losses. Thats never going to happen.
I'll give communism a miss thanks.
kuro68k said:
I really hope Boris doesn't get a majority. Really dreading another 5+ years of this brexit st.
People need to look beyond brexit. Boris is a menace, and things like the NHS and our sovereignty are more important than brexit. Once the NHS is sold off and a bad deal done with the US it will be very, very hard to undo.
You might not like Labour but there will be another election in 5 years time when it can all be undone. Not so with brexit and a bad Boris deal.
You're totally deluded if you think the NHS will be "sold off".t.People need to look beyond brexit. Boris is a menace, and things like the NHS and our sovereignty are more important than brexit. Once the NHS is sold off and a bad deal done with the US it will be very, very hard to undo.
You might not like Labour but there will be another election in 5 years time when it can all be undone. Not so with brexit and a bad Boris deal.
It won't be.
kuro68k said:
amusingduck said:
Oh wonderful, finally somebody who can explain to me how that works. By what mechanism is the NHS going to be 'sold off', ditto preventing the NHS from sourcing drugs from non-US companies/forcing NHS to overpay?
Well when we adopt US patent rules on medicine we can't just buy cheaper generic versions as we do now. That's what patents are for, to stop you doing that.Shocking that people don't understand basic stuff like this and are willingly going to destroy the best thing we have in this country because of it.
How does a US FTA prevent the UK from sourcing medicines from non-US vendors? Why would the NHS voluntarily choose patented US medicines when generic cheaper medicines are available? They wouldn't, so the FTA must prevent the NHS from doing so. Please explain how!
deadslow said:
ChocolateFrog said:
You're totally deluded if you think the NHS will be "sold off".
It won't be.
correct, it will be given/taken awayIt won't be.
I don't know why people re that worried about the NHS "being sold off"
I was treated in 2005 (so under Labour) for a knee operation. Rather than build hospitals and invest, Labour had brought waiting lists down by balancing supply and buying some services from private hospitals. I was seen, operated on and all was well. I don't see an issue with that model for some simple surgery and post operative care.
Secondly, everyone outsources services to some extent, it's a question of where you draw the line and getting the right balance, Not everything in the NHS is a "core service"
The NHS is good, I am an advocate but it is not the best in the world. Other more socialist countries have excellent healthcare and insurance based models.
I would happily pay a little more tax to increase their funding, but that would have to be balanced with the service changing and finding efficiencies, as it is riddled with inefficient processes and administration.
I would like to see some independent long term thinking on the NHS - maybe a royal commission with a free remit to look at the NHS model for the next 50 years and take it out of the 5 year election cycle of promises (on all sides)
I was treated in 2005 (so under Labour) for a knee operation. Rather than build hospitals and invest, Labour had brought waiting lists down by balancing supply and buying some services from private hospitals. I was seen, operated on and all was well. I don't see an issue with that model for some simple surgery and post operative care.
Secondly, everyone outsources services to some extent, it's a question of where you draw the line and getting the right balance, Not everything in the NHS is a "core service"
The NHS is good, I am an advocate but it is not the best in the world. Other more socialist countries have excellent healthcare and insurance based models.
I would happily pay a little more tax to increase their funding, but that would have to be balanced with the service changing and finding efficiencies, as it is riddled with inefficient processes and administration.
I would like to see some independent long term thinking on the NHS - maybe a royal commission with a free remit to look at the NHS model for the next 50 years and take it out of the 5 year election cycle of promises (on all sides)
Digga said:
deadslow said:
ChocolateFrog said:
You're totally deluded if you think the NHS will be "sold off".
It won't be.
correct, it will be given/taken awayIt won't be.
If a government "sold off" the NHS it'd never be voted in ever again.
kuro68k said:
1. Those "costs" are really investments though, because those industries generate revenue. In fact as long as the revenue covers the cost of borrowing the money to buy them, which at the moment is extremely low, it's a net positive for the government. Not to mention the huge benefits to us, the customers.
2. They aren't giving away 10% of companies either, the rule will just be that over time they have to offer shares to staff and move towards that goal. It's worked extremely well in places like Germany.
1. They are not really investments if bought below @ Fair Market Value - as McDonnell is keen to point out. Buying at lower than this price is theft from pension funds AND grossly illegal under international treaty (done to death in here - please go back and read up). Revenue is NOT profit (used to pay dividends). It's only net positive IF you appropriate the shares - but then the UK will spend 3 times the cost on legal fee's and investor compensation over the next 10 years. You've also issued a liability with little correlation to the investment performance. They will be divergent with the equity highly exposed to market risks - which the govt exacerbated. 2. They aren't giving away 10% of companies either, the rule will just be that over time they have to offer shares to staff and move towards that goal. It's worked extremely well in places like Germany.
2. The 10% employee purchase program generates 10 times the revenue for the govt than the workers. It's a plain and simple tax grab. Since they also plan to rip up OECD tax documentation on Capital Gains, and Withholding Taxes - the tax tilt, could increase.
That aside, you make an interesting point on patents – IT’S THE only credible argument I’ve heard on the NHS on here to date (I think it’s overstated as a risk – but it clearly is one, its a banana skin THAT could crystalise into increased costs). Suggesting it’s for sale; or we are going for a US style system with the requirement MedicAid / Medicare doesn’t stack up – privatisation in the US medical “industry” (it’s not a service) means that Medicaid alone costs $350bn P.A. we couldn’t afford that (no matter how far right you are). It’s 10% of the Federal Budget. MediCare is 14%. Allowing for population, thats MORE than we spend in the UK on a Nationalised Service...
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 11th December 10:55
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 11th December 11:00
vaud said:
The NHS is good, I am an advocate but it is not the best in the world. Other more socialist countries have excellent healthcare and insurance based models.
I would like to see some independent long term thinking on the NHS - maybe a royal commission with a free remit to look at the NHS model for the next 50 years and take it out of the 5 year election cycle of promises (on all sides)
I would like to see that as well however it just isn’t going to happen. The NHS is a religion and nothing it does is bad. I would like to see some independent long term thinking on the NHS - maybe a royal commission with a free remit to look at the NHS model for the next 50 years and take it out of the 5 year election cycle of promises (on all sides)
kuro68k said:
They aren't giving away 10% of companies either, the rule will just be that over time they have to offer shares to staff and move towards that goal. It's worked extremely well in places like Germany.
On a minor point some French companies run share schemes to increase employee ownership. All looks very nice on paper for the employee.The strategic reason is to make takeovers harder as the employees can make up to 5% of the ownership, creating a level of "poison pill" for the acquirer.
kuro68k said:
They aren't giving away 10% of companies either, the rule will just be that over time they have to offer shares to staff and move towards that goal. It's worked extremely well in places like Germany.
That's complete bullst. It works nothing like that. You either don't understand the policy or you're lying.https://www.cliffordchance.com/content/dam/cliffor...
Over a 10 year period, 10% of equity will be expropriated. This will not be offered to staff. It will be put into a fund. Of the dividends paid to that fund, a proportion will be given to staff, capped at £500/year and the rest (most of it) will be taken by government.
It's theft of equity and an effective hike in corporation tax to the highest in the developed world.
ChocolateFrog said:
Digga said:
deadslow said:
ChocolateFrog said:
You're totally deluded if you think the NHS will be "sold off".
It won't be.
correct, it will be given/taken awayIt won't be.
If a government "sold off" the NHS it'd never be voted in ever again.
We have had this creep of local ring fencing appearing in our community charge along with ‘special cases’ for increase in tax for the police for example.
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