Pizza Express - Next one to collapse?
Discussion
JJ55 said:
Only eaten in pizza express a few times. It’s been hit & miss. The food is always fine but service & wait times have been bad on some visits. It is also expensive.
Since we discovered Franco manca’s great pizzas we’ve never been back to pizza express.
Exactly this.Since we discovered Franco manca’s great pizzas we’ve never been back to pizza express.
Better food. Better staff. 40% cheaper pizza and way, way better. Real, tasty sour dough pizza.
PE was my default choice for 20+ years but now the price and taste takes us to Franco Manca.
Oakey said:
So when Lemming Train said they charge you about £20 and it costs them 10p he wasn't far off then (based on the actual menu prices)?
No, not miles off, slightly exaggerated to illustrate his point but yes, the cost of the ingredients to make a pizza, well to make any food really, is miniscule compared to the final sales cost. But that is true of all restaurants, PE just benefit to a greater or lesser extent from the economies of scale compared to their competitorsStanleyT said:
I used to work in Northern Foods making M&S sandwiches. The most expensive sandwich sent to go to M&Ss shelves at the time was a "prawn triple".
Sold in those days for £1.30 in M&S.
Sold in the factory canteen at cost-to-make of 12p!
Mark up on food is huge at each step of the process.
Be sad to see PE go if they do, we didn't have Pizza Hut where I grew up and the local Italian didn't serve youths so was the first pizza place I frequented and seemed OK at the time. Probably helped we'd all got bottles of White lightening / Buckie / Toilet Duck / MadDog20:20 so never bought booze though......helped keep the bill down, more money for carbs to soak the booze.
I remember my son in law telling us how much a bog standard margarita pizza cost in ingredients in the restaurant that he worked in at the time, something like 37p on a pizza selling for circa £7.00.Sold in those days for £1.30 in M&S.
Sold in the factory canteen at cost-to-make of 12p!
Mark up on food is huge at each step of the process.
Be sad to see PE go if they do, we didn't have Pizza Hut where I grew up and the local Italian didn't serve youths so was the first pizza place I frequented and seemed OK at the time. Probably helped we'd all got bottles of White lightening / Buckie / Toilet Duck / MadDog20:20 so never bought booze though......helped keep the bill down, more money for carbs to soak the booze.
HTP99 said:
StanleyT said:
I used to work in Northern Foods making M&S sandwiches. The most expensive sandwich sent to go to M&Ss shelves at the time was a "prawn triple".
Sold in those days for £1.30 in M&S.
Sold in the factory canteen at cost-to-make of 12p!
Mark up on food is huge at each step of the process.
Be sad to see PE go if they do, we didn't have Pizza Hut where I grew up and the local Italian didn't serve youths so was the first pizza place I frequented and seemed OK at the time. Probably helped we'd all got bottles of White lightening / Buckie / Toilet Duck / MadDog20:20 so never bought booze though......helped keep the bill down, more money for carbs to soak the booze.
I remember my son in law telling us how much a bog standard margarita pizza cost in ingredients in the restaurant that he worked in at the time, something like 37p on a pizza selling for circa £7.00.Sold in those days for £1.30 in M&S.
Sold in the factory canteen at cost-to-make of 12p!
Mark up on food is huge at each step of the process.
Be sad to see PE go if they do, we didn't have Pizza Hut where I grew up and the local Italian didn't serve youths so was the first pizza place I frequented and seemed OK at the time. Probably helped we'd all got bottles of White lightening / Buckie / Toilet Duck / MadDog20:20 so never bought booze though......helped keep the bill down, more money for carbs to soak the booze.
te (or ripping people off if this tale is from the early 1970s!).DDg said:
So what happened to all that money - the £1.1 bn? Where did it go? Who’s got it? And when did the borrowing occur? Relatively recently, or over decades?
A brief history of PE (IIRC)Edited by DDg on Wednesday 9th October 10:31
floated on stock market 1993
took private by TDR in 2003
Bundled into Gondola which was floated in 2005
Gondola taken private in 2007 by Cinven
PE bought by current owner (Hony Capital / Legend) in 2014. For £900m or so
The bonds I mentioned previously were issued at the end of Dec 2017 - partly to refinance the purchase (i.e. put a bit back into Hony / Legend) and partly to fund international expansion
If there is any trouble refinancing PE and Hony / Legend really wants to, it can pay back the bonds at the drop of a hat from it's own resources. Whether it wants to, or not, remains to be seen.
As has been said, Pizza Express have more debt than they can repay, without additional funding from their parent. They do seem to be able to service the existing debt just about. And they have a lot going for them in terms of locations and offering. It's a solid mass market brand that's a safe option for families. They've nailed a differential pricing model that seems quite clever to me: if you're motivated you can usually find a voucher and get some money off, and if you're not then it's the dining equivalent of a distress purchase (which of us parents haven't, honestly, had a need at some point to feed our family at short notice due to crap admin/other?). And then you pay the full price. But even then, £70 or £80 for a known-quantity meal out with my wife and daughter on a weekend really isn't something I begrudge at all. I've always found the staff to be lovely.
In our rural/provincial home environment we're not overwhelmed with options, so it serves its purpose.
We go there once or twice a month. The pizza dough tastes exactly the same as I make at home in my pizza oven unless I decide to use sourdough. The toppings are fine. Yes, the booze is expensive but it's hardly the sort of place you'd go drinking and it doesn't seem any worse than other places we go to, far from it.
I'd be sad to see it go, if it were to come to that.
In our rural/provincial home environment we're not overwhelmed with options, so it serves its purpose.
We go there once or twice a month. The pizza dough tastes exactly the same as I make at home in my pizza oven unless I decide to use sourdough. The toppings are fine. Yes, the booze is expensive but it's hardly the sort of place you'd go drinking and it doesn't seem any worse than other places we go to, far from it.
I'd be sad to see it go, if it were to come to that.
Been dining there regularly myself for the past 30 years. Since we've had kids we probably go once or twice a month. Food is always a decent, consistent quality and we usually find a voucher to redeem, but occasionally pay full price and don't begrudge that. Staff are usually very nice and if not, then I don't leave a tip. I hope they do make a go of it - would be very sad to see it go as I much prefer their pizzas to any other chain I've been to.
Shakermaker said:
moanthebairns said:
I'm more a pizza hut guy, I've been once years ago. What are you talking for two medium pizzas and drinks? (without the vouchers).
£30-35 without vouchers for that, at about £11 per pizza and £3-6 per drink if you avoid wine/large beerShakermaker said:
moanthebairns said:
Tbh, if you sit in at Pizza Hut your lucky to get change from £40 for two, that said a desert is included.
I'll go to the hut for the buffet, or I'll order one for delivery (with offers) but I wouldn't go there for a meal the same way I would with Pizza Express. BoRED S2upid said:
Very much this. Look at Wagamama last night in Cardiff it was heaving and within 15 mins my order was taken, drink and side arrived within 30 mins I had paid and someone else was sat at my seat. The steady flow of diliveroo going out the door is a good business model to follow.
As for PE owing a billion the writings on the wall that’s a huge amount.
£1.2bn was the figure I herd. How TF is that even allowed to happen? They apparently have 490 UK outlets and another 100 international ones. That means that each restaurant is carrying £2m of debt. How on earth do you get out of that? You have to sell a whole sAs for PE owing a billion the writings on the wall that’s a huge amount.
t load of pizza's just to service 2 million quid's worth of debt let alone pay it down.DDg said:
I wonder what debt the company had when it was floated, what was the debt when Cinven bought it, and what was it when they sold it?
I always assumed that if you bought a firm, you'd look to improve it's profitability and future potential with the resulting attractiveness manifesting itself in a higher sale value.
Would it be unfair to say a Private Equity firm buys a firm, mortgages / borrows / issues bonds for more than they're in for, takes it as a dividend, then exits? What I don't understand is why a lender would lend / buy bonds when they must have an idea how it would all end.
Not most usually a dividend. It is more often preference shares that are cashed on exit or a loan with a very healthy interest rateI always assumed that if you bought a firm, you'd look to improve it's profitability and future potential with the resulting attractiveness manifesting itself in a higher sale value.
Would it be unfair to say a Private Equity firm buys a firm, mortgages / borrows / issues bonds for more than they're in for, takes it as a dividend, then exits? What I don't understand is why a lender would lend / buy bonds when they must have an idea how it would all end.
Some would say pizza express had done a better job of selling bonds than it ever has at selling pizzas...
basherX said:
As has been said, Pizza Express have more debt than they can repay, without additional funding from their parent. They do seem to be able to service the existing debt just about. And they have a lot going for them in terms of locations and offering. It's a solid mass market brand that's a safe option for families. They've nailed a differential pricing model that seems quite clever to me: if you're motivated you can usually find a voucher and get some money off, and if you're not then it's the dining equivalent of a distress purchase (which of us parents haven't, honestly, had a need at some point to feed our family at short notice due to crap admin/other?). And then you pay the full price. But even then, £70 or £80 for a known-quantity meal out with my wife and daughter on a weekend really isn't something I begrudge at all. I've always found the staff to be lovely.
In our rural/provincial home environment we're not overwhelmed with options, so it serves its purpose.
We go there once or twice a month. The pizza dough tastes exactly the same as I make at home in my pizza oven unless I decide to use sourdough. The toppings are fine. Yes, the booze is expensive but it's hardly the sort of place you'd go drinking and it doesn't seem any worse than other places we go to, far from it.
I'd be sad to see it go, if it were to come to that.
I can't ever recall going to PE so this is a surprise to me - are you genuinely saying that a meal for two adults and a child (I'm assuming she isn't a grown-up daughter) there can run to eighty quid? Seriously, eight zero quid??In our rural/provincial home environment we're not overwhelmed with options, so it serves its purpose.
We go there once or twice a month. The pizza dough tastes exactly the same as I make at home in my pizza oven unless I decide to use sourdough. The toppings are fine. Yes, the booze is expensive but it's hardly the sort of place you'd go drinking and it doesn't seem any worse than other places we go to, far from it.
I'd be sad to see it go, if it were to come to that.
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