Brexit, what have you learnt
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
blueg33 said:
Troubleatmill said:
But - they were dumb enough to hand over the decision to the electorate in the form of a referendum.
The second they did that - the genie is out of the bottle - it simply must be implemented.
A referendum is not binding on anyoneThe second they did that - the genie is out of the bottle - it simply must be implemented.
Or is it a bit more complicated than that?
If you really believe remaining/leaving is the right thing, have the courage of your convictions and tell your constituency why. But they won't, because they don't want to leave the MP gravy train.
Someone just needs to make a decision on what the UK is doing! Another referendum will not solve a damn thing. Either cancel article 50 or take the deal Boris has. One or the other.
Crackie said:
I'm surprised by the section in bold.
I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
Please, indulge me; why do you believe that? What has happened since the last vote to make you more confident? It can't be that you have more faith in our politicians and negotiators to secure us great deals worldwide. Not on the evidence of ineptitude all round that we've seen over the last 40 months.I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
mikebradford said:
toon10 said:
In my view leaving the EU is bad for the UK and I think a lot of politicians are well aware of that. Not many want to be the ones responsible for putting the UK in a worse situation yet they know that they have to. Once that vote was counted, we had to leave at some point. All of the delays are turning off investors so it just needs to be done. A lot of remainers said at the time of the vote that we would never get a deal as good as we have in the EU so it was always a case of damage limitation. Nothing has changed in 3 years on that front. We need to just get on with it and deal with the fallout.
We all love a good analogy on here and this one isn't but... It's a bit like being in a bar with your mates and some meat head is staring at you. You ask your friends for advice and they vote that you have to go over there and ask him what the hell he is looking at. You know it's not going to end well but stalling isn't going to make it any easier. Just get over there and take that punch
[/b]You might go over to find out he has no issue and was simply looking your way.[/b]We all love a good analogy on here and this one isn't but... It's a bit like being in a bar with your mates and some meat head is staring at you. You ask your friends for advice and they vote that you have to go over there and ask him what the hell he is looking at. You know it's not going to end well but stalling isn't going to make it any easier. Just get over there and take that punch
Or simply put you'll never know the outcome, good or bad until you actually do it.
Nexus Icon said:
Please, indulge me; why do you believe that? What has happened since the last vote to make you more confident? It can't be that you have more faith in our politicians and negotiators to secure us great deals worldwide. Not on the evidence of ineptitude all round that we've seen over the last 40 months.
Maybe because making a success of BREXIT has more to do with our ability to respond to global events; than our ability to trade with our "current" largest trading partner. There is a truck load of bad news heading towards the EU economy. Historical observation is no guarantee of future performance. There are a lot of Scotish whiskey producers cursing French abuses of WTO rules right now, membership of the SM /CM has a downside too. It's an inconvenient truth, not once been mentioned by Remain.There is also observable data that highlights the internal rigidity of the EU economy to respond to stimulus. Its elsewhere on here. With debt to gdp ratio's in orbit, they need a new magic trick to generate inflation.
I'm amazed that people are so keen to say "but, but trade" and totally miss the wood for the tree's.
Oh, and the IMF clearly tells you whats happened since the last vote.
Nexus Icon said:
Crackie said:
I'm surprised by the section in bold.
I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
Please, indulge me; why do you believe that? What has happened since the last vote to make you more confident? It can't be that you have more faith in our politicians and negotiators to secure us great deals worldwide. Not on the evidence of ineptitude all round that we've seen over the last 40 months.I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 21st October 14:01
Crackie said:
Not one particular factor but a combination of things. I didn't realise just how unpopular the EU is on the continent too, the polls that indicate the majority of EU citizens don't like the direction that the Commission is taking and that the majority of citizens believe the EU will be gone within 20 years. The T2 liabilities, the EU Army, the Barcelona Agreement and its likely long term implications, the corruption and cronyism within the institutions, the voting changes and move further towards QMV, the loss of rebate, Mark Blyth, some of Stongle's contributions............and probably the largest factor, the Commission's stated long term Federalism end game.
Nice post - I concur. 
Crackie said:
Nexus Icon said:
Crackie said:
I'm surprised by the section in bold.
I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
Please, indulge me; why do you believe that? What has happened since the last vote to make you more confident? It can't be that you have more faith in our politicians and negotiators to secure us great deals worldwide. Not on the evidence of ineptitude all round that we've seen over the last 40 months.I thought it was in the best interests of the country and still do; the leavers I know also do..........that is why they voted leave.
I think, on balance, there are still more pros than cons to membership but think that situation is on the point of reversal. I expected Brexit to hit and hurt the UK, and me personally, in the short term but is in the country's best long term interests; three years after the ref, I vote the same again and be more confident it was the right choice this time.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 21st October 14:01
techiedave said:
I learned today that Brexit is very unlikely to happen
As I said elsewhere
Brexit has been killed off
Killed by conspiring MP's Self interests both here and in Brussels
Ably assisted by a biased speaker
It's not going to happen
My mum would agree with you. It's scary because I get all my news via PH, she gets all her news from I don't know where but mainly I suspect the Daily Telegraph.As I said elsewhere
Brexit has been killed off
Killed by conspiring MP's Self interests both here and in Brussels
Ably assisted by a biased speaker
It's not going to happen
So far she has an impressive track record calling every twist and turn in this saga.
I'm one nil up at the moment because over Sunday dinner back in 2016 I said "I can't wait for Trump to be President and Boris to be PM" - everyone laughed at me like I was a loon - Wish I'd put a 10 Euro accumulator on that sequence of events.
(Even just Trump - 500/1 to get the nomination, 1000/1 to become President, my son endlessly reminds me how many millions we could have in the bank now
) techiedave said:
I learned today that Brexit is very unlikely to happen
As I said elsewhere
Brexit has been killed off
Killed by conspiring MP's Self interests both here and in Brussels
Ably assisted by a biased speaker
It's not going to happen
I tend to agree. It was always the case that by dragging it on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on the public would tire of it and just vote for anything to make it stop.As I said elsewhere
Brexit has been killed off
Killed by conspiring MP's Self interests both here and in Brussels
Ably assisted by a biased speaker
It's not going to happen
I do wonder what the long term consequences will be of this. I don't imagine riots. Or even mass civil disobedience. You'll get a massive disconnect in politics from a massive numbner of people in the UK. But once the initial 4-5 years of hating all politicians has died down. (And it will because people will get bored of that too)
I assume a Super Brexit party will rise up and literally bludgeon our way to the exit of the EU. Literally s
tting all over the EU in every conceivable way. No co-operation on security, (even in the face of terrorist activity) banning all EU products or hitting it with massive tariffs. Not attending meetings, OR just being massively belligerent in Brussels blocking anything decent and passing anything that harms them. Scorch the earth policy (after all apparently, we have a lot of sway in Brussels...)
I'm not sure this would be helpful. But I can see it.
PositronicRay said:
Chin up, it's only politics.
The Glib responses (and those of MPs) will lead to bigger problems. blueg33 said:
Except the UK has a veto so it’s position is not directly comparable with other eu states
Well Juncker has already said they need to remove Vetos on Foreign Policy and Taxation. The former of course clearing the way for UK military forces to be deployed abroad under the EU Army banner.And of course the Veto was introduced because the UK has only ever been 50/50 about the whole thing. And this was Brussels way of keeping the UK onside. Lest we ever decided to Leave...
Chortle
JALS
You don't agree with your Mum by the sound of it? Where do you differ?
Edited by S1KRR on Monday 21st October 20:26
S1KRR said:
Well Juncker has already said they need to remove Vetos on Foreign Policy and Taxation. The former of course clearing the way for UK military forces to be deployed abroad under the EU Army banner.
And of course the Veto was introduced because the UK has only ever been 50/50 about the whole thing. And this was Brussels way of keeping the UK onside. Lest we ever decided to Leave...
Chortle
And how do they remove the veto? We can veto it. And of course the Veto was introduced because the UK has only ever been 50/50 about the whole thing. And this was Brussels way of keeping the UK onside. Lest we ever decided to Leave...
Chortle
Edited by S1KRR on Monday 21st October 20:26
UK parliament is and would have continued to be sovereign.
blueg33 said:
And how do they remove the veto? We can veto it.
UK parliament is and would have continued to be sovereign.
QMVUK parliament is and would have continued to be sovereign.
You know how we lose votes? They'll shift to QMV via votes (ironic) Then use that to remove Vetos on the 2 points above.
We both know that if the EU wants to do something it will do it. And the occupants of Brussels will happily go along with it to enjoy the gravy.
That remoaners are undemocratic?
That remoaners are underhanded snakes?
That remoaners ignore majority opinions?
That remoaners are destroying our democratic institutions?
Anyway this was on the other thread and made me laugh. What a...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JXgIFF2AWaw
Enjoy the short lived EU trough you utter...
That remoaners are underhanded snakes?
That remoaners ignore majority opinions?
That remoaners are destroying our democratic institutions?
Anyway this was on the other thread and made me laugh. What a
...https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JXgIFF2AWaw
Enjoy the short lived EU trough you utter
...S1KRR said:
QMV
You know how we lose votes? They'll shift to QMV via votes (ironic) Then use that to remove Vetos on the 2 points above.
We both know that if the EU wants to do something it will do it. And the occupants of Brussels will happily go along with it to enjoy the gravy.
QMV over riding vetos, abstentions and opt outs is typical mis information. You can read all about it online. You know how we lose votes? They'll shift to QMV via votes (ironic) Then use that to remove Vetos on the 2 points above.
We both know that if the EU wants to do something it will do it. And the occupants of Brussels will happily go along with it to enjoy the gravy.
Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 22 October 07:29
The irony with this whole Brexit thing is that it's been so divisive but will in reality make very little difference to anyone.
I voted remain but accept that the vote went the way it did. Tough. I think there was complacency on the part of the remain camp and it's created a lot of problems. Continually trying to reverse the vote will cause more.
When we finally leave our economy will do well just as it would have done inside the EU. We won't be striking any meaningful trade deals any time soon that's for sure. We will get free trade worth the EU of that there is no doubt and we will continue largely operating within the EUs regulatory framework as that's where we sell to. The US won't give us an easy ride nor will any other nation so be careful what you wish for there. Maybe the penny will eventually drop that being part of a much bigger negotiating bloc has benefits.
In the 3 years we have been pissing about with Brexit the rest of the country is struggling. There are huge issues building with the state of things for the less well off lots needs sorting out to improve the lot of lower paid working families. That's the real crisis in the UK at the moment that and the absolute pandemic of crime that we are sleepwalking into. The sooner Brexit slips down the agenda the better.
We have whipped Btexit up into something it just isn't. In or out of the EU as much as I would have preferred to stay in its not that I think there's a gold plated future outside I just don't really think it matters too much of we are fully inside one regulatory framework or another we are still wealthy country with plenty of dirty slave money and ill gotten financial market money to power us for a good while yet!
I voted remain but accept that the vote went the way it did. Tough. I think there was complacency on the part of the remain camp and it's created a lot of problems. Continually trying to reverse the vote will cause more.
When we finally leave our economy will do well just as it would have done inside the EU. We won't be striking any meaningful trade deals any time soon that's for sure. We will get free trade worth the EU of that there is no doubt and we will continue largely operating within the EUs regulatory framework as that's where we sell to. The US won't give us an easy ride nor will any other nation so be careful what you wish for there. Maybe the penny will eventually drop that being part of a much bigger negotiating bloc has benefits.
In the 3 years we have been pissing about with Brexit the rest of the country is struggling. There are huge issues building with the state of things for the less well off lots needs sorting out to improve the lot of lower paid working families. That's the real crisis in the UK at the moment that and the absolute pandemic of crime that we are sleepwalking into. The sooner Brexit slips down the agenda the better.
We have whipped Btexit up into something it just isn't. In or out of the EU as much as I would have preferred to stay in its not that I think there's a gold plated future outside I just don't really think it matters too much of we are fully inside one regulatory framework or another we are still wealthy country with plenty of dirty slave money and ill gotten financial market money to power us for a good while yet!
blueg33 said:
QMV over riding vetos, abstentions and opt outs is typical mis information. You can read all about it online.
I believe it's a matter of record that the EU are progressively removing vetos?They're recognised as causing big problems for the bloc (see the South American trade deal as a recent example), and the stated goal is to replace them with less binary voting methods. I think people like Helicopter describes that sort of thing as "extra democracy"
blueg33 said:
S1KRR said:
QMV
You know how we lose votes? They'll shift to QMV via votes (ironic) Then use that to remove Vetos on the 2 points above.
We both know that if the EU wants to do something it will do it. And the occupants of Brussels will happily go along with it to enjoy the gravy.
QMV over riding veto abstentions is a proposal that many EU members do not support. It would need unanimous support, which it won’t get. You know how we lose votes? They'll shift to QMV via votes (ironic) Then use that to remove Vetos on the 2 points above.
We both know that if the EU wants to do something it will do it. And the occupants of Brussels will happily go along with it to enjoy the gravy.
EU members do not make the proposals; member states and their citizens are becoming increasingly sceptical about the Commission's motives for further rollout of QMW.
Fortunately Verhofstadt is always on hand to remind citizens about what the end game is....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzNPpmIFuK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkdIJCqcaNA
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