Brexit, what have you learnt
Discussion
Brexit - what have we all learnt?
We have learnt that there is a significant majority of remain MPs in parliament that will do all that they can to prevent brexit.
We have also learnt that the speaker is able to conduct himself in a non-impartial manner.
Also we've learnt that MPs have no moral attributes to follow the desires of their constituency. Instead they will tend to vote in parliament only according to their own individual and partisan agendas.
Over the course of the past 3 years I've also learnt that if an MP refuses to follow the constituents desires and/or the partisan agenda they will still retain their job as an MP and be able to sit and vote in parliament (as a rouge entity so to speak - representing nobody but themselves).
Also learnt of the importance of a majority government. When there is no majority the whole system breaks down in to partisan childish playground games - whereby the people affected are you and me and the national interest - which also ends up being a huge wasted public expense bill.
We have learnt that there is a significant majority of remain MPs in parliament that will do all that they can to prevent brexit.
We have also learnt that the speaker is able to conduct himself in a non-impartial manner.
Also we've learnt that MPs have no moral attributes to follow the desires of their constituency. Instead they will tend to vote in parliament only according to their own individual and partisan agendas.
Over the course of the past 3 years I've also learnt that if an MP refuses to follow the constituents desires and/or the partisan agenda they will still retain their job as an MP and be able to sit and vote in parliament (as a rouge entity so to speak - representing nobody but themselves).
Also learnt of the importance of a majority government. When there is no majority the whole system breaks down in to partisan childish playground games - whereby the people affected are you and me and the national interest - which also ends up being a huge wasted public expense bill.
PositronicRay said:
selym said:
Going back to the original question, one thing I've learnt about Brexit (well, about people) is that the population seem to thrive on living in a divided nation. I can't see a time when we won't all be judged primarily on how we voted in a referendum, decades previous.
People can f
k off as far as I'm concerned.
It gives us all something to focus our hate on. People can f
k off as far as I'm concerned.Granted there are some (including on here) who are strongly in favour of deregulated free markets etc. , but for many it appears to be a general dissatisfaction/anger with the modern world and an identity crisis, that not everybody shares. Few angry people (often pensioners) actually knew/know what the impact would be and it possibly didn't really concern them. It would really be very dishonest to claim that they did.
The people who wish to remain in the EU are not typically fanatical about the EU and its workings (who gets excited about administration or the civil service?) , they would just prefer to retain the status quo and the benefits and conveniences it brings. There doesn't appear to be hate involved.
The two camps are broadly populated by people of different ages & backgrounds, with different outlooks, who previously lived alongside each other, but had nothing to illuminate or focus attention on their differences. The differences were there, but had no label.
There is a label now.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 23 October 11:27
MC Bodge said:
It has very little to do with the EU.
Granted there are some (including on here) who are strongly in favour of deregulated free markets etc. , but for many it appears to be a general dissatisfaction/anger with the modern world and an identity crisis, that not everybody shares. Few angry people (often pensioners) actually knew/know what the impact would be and it possibly didn't really concern them. It would really be very dishonest to claim that they did.
The people who wish to remain in the EU are not typically fanatical about the EU and its workings (who gets excited about administration or the civil service?) , they would just prefer to retain the status quo and the benefits and conveniences it brings. There doesn't appear to be hate involved.
The two camps are broadly populated by people of different ages & backgrounds, with different outlooks, who previously lived alongside each other, but had nothing to illuminate or focus attention on their differences. The differences were there, but had no label.
There is a label now.
You are right; it has nothing much to do with the EU, leaving the EU or whatever. It is that people are insufferable Granted there are some (including on here) who are strongly in favour of deregulated free markets etc. , but for many it appears to be a general dissatisfaction/anger with the modern world and an identity crisis, that not everybody shares. Few angry people (often pensioners) actually knew/know what the impact would be and it possibly didn't really concern them. It would really be very dishonest to claim that they did.
The people who wish to remain in the EU are not typically fanatical about the EU and its workings (who gets excited about administration or the civil service?) , they would just prefer to retain the status quo and the benefits and conveniences it brings. There doesn't appear to be hate involved.
The two camps are broadly populated by people of different ages & backgrounds, with different outlooks, who previously lived alongside each other, but had nothing to illuminate or focus attention on their differences. The differences were there, but had no label.
There is a label now.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 23 October 11:27
s generally; whether that be because of gender politics, racism, money and power, car choice, football team, political leaning, musical preference, dress, what one chooses to eat (or not eat), how their car and house have been bought/leased/rented......the list goes on. What Brexit shows is that there are either those in the country who believe in and respect democracy, even when the result of a vote does not go the way they wanted it to, or there are the anti democrats, who only believe in a biased, highly selective version of `democracy' where they want to be able to pick, and choose which democratic vote they will respect, and which they will not. Which actually means they don't believe in democracy at all.
Pan Pan Pan said:
What Brexit shows is that there are either those in the country who believe in and respect democracy, even when the result of a vote does not go the way they wanted it to, or there are the anti democrats, who only believe in a biased, highly selective version of `democracy' where they want to be able to pick, and choose which democratic vote they will respect, and which they will not. Which actually means they don't believe in democracy at all.
Democracy is being redefined as we speak - the UK will soon have a vastly different (wrong) appreciation of democracy to the rest of the world. selym said:
Democracy is being redefined as we speak - the UK will soon have a vastly different (wrong) appreciation of democracy to the rest of the world.
The UK has a parliamentary democracy. Unfortunately, somebody threw in a poorly thought-out hand grenade/act of direct democracy and asked the Parliament to sort it out afterwards. MC Bodge said:
selym said:
Democracy is being redefined as we speak - the UK will soon have a vastly different (wrong) appreciation of democracy to the rest of the world.
The UK has a parliamentary democracy. Unfortunately, somebody threw in a poorly thought-out hand grenade/act of direct democracy and asked the Parliament to sort it out afterwards. I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
natben said:
I have learned just how much of our democracy is controlled by the EU. They control our trade and overrule our courts of justice to name just a few points and I for one don't like it. I voted to remain but now I know more I want to leave and as quickly as possible.
Ah, but the erosion of democracy we are all witnessing at the moment is purely driven by our parliament. It could be repeated on any footing; a bill to make fundamental changes to the NHS for example. Brexit is just a convenient occurrence that is highlighting the democratic loopholes and pitfalls.selym said:
Well I am pretty sure the nation don't regard their democracy as parliamentary democracy. The fundamentals of democracy we all expect is sold to us as the main reason we should be thankful to be living in a country such as the UK.
I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The nation are wrong, then. I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The population are not well informed and they need not be. Other people run the country for them.
MC Bodge said:
selym said:
Well I am pretty sure the nation don't regard their democracy as parliamentary democracy. The fundamentals of democracy we all expect is sold to us as the main reason we should be thankful to be living in a country such as the UK.
I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The nation are wrong, then. I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The population are not well informed and they need not be. Other people run the country for them.
MC Bodge said:
selym said:
Well I am pretty sure the nation don't regard their democracy as parliamentary democracy. The fundamentals of democracy we all expect is sold to us as the main reason we should be thankful to be living in a country such as the UK.
I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The nation are wrong, then. I don't actually worry too much about it - I know what my vote is worth.
The population are not well informed and they need not be. Other people run the country for them.
selym said:
So you are saying that the population don't need to be concerned about democracy at all? I'm not looking for an epic back and forth on this, just interesting to see what other views are.
The population vote, if they choose to, for a local MP every few years. The MP goes on their behalf to Westminster and acts in their constituents' interests (not opinion).The population need not concern themselves with voting on every issue.
The UK system is outdated, in my opinion. It should be more representative of all views and positions.
That we as a country are terrified of self governance and the work it entails at parliamentary level so it’s easier to be a slave colony of another country.
I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
1974nc said:
That we as a country are terrified of self governance and the work it entails at parliamentary level so it’s easier to be a slave colony of another country.
I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
Have you thought to ask the EU27?I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
1974nc said:
That we as a country are terrified of self governance and the work it entails at parliamentary level so it’s easier to be a slave colony of another country.
I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
What country is this? The EU is a trading block not a country and we are not a slave to them at all. We're a partner with common interests, common benefits and a say in what is implemented by being a part of it. OK, we have to pay to have these advantages which irks some and I get that but a slave?I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
toon10 said:
1974nc said:
That we as a country are terrified of self governance and the work it entails at parliamentary level so it’s easier to be a slave colony of another country.
I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
What country is this? The EU is a trading block not a country and we are not a slave to them at all. We're a partner with common interests, common benefits and a say in what is implemented by being a part of it. OK, we have to pay to have these advantages which irks some and I get that but a slave?I doubt any other countries in the world would be so happy to give up their independence.
Also the brass neck of MP’s who openly defy their constituents because of personal benefit to themselves and be damned to everyone else. These people should not have the jobs they are paid to do.
I appreciate you love the EU but why we can not stand alone as a country beggars belief.
Even the receiver states of the EU don’t particularly like the bloc.
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