Brexit, what have you learnt
Discussion
Troubleatmill said:
jonnyb said:
A Winner Is You said:
Down and out said:
AW111 said:
I've learned that brexiteers just love hyperbole.
Well, I've heard the words "crashing out" from remainers so many times I'm wondering what it is we're crashing into? Will there be broken glass? Will we bump into Ireland? Should I buy some sort of harness?williamp said:
3) that the speaker has way more power then one person should, is uncontrollable and above all questions of judgement. That he can decide what the agenda will be is a shocking afront to democracy. Its no good saying they all get to vote when what they are voting on is set beforehand by one person.
Quite right, He should never have allowed the referendum bill to be debated in the first place.amusingduck said:
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
Implicit consent each time our elected politicians made decisions on our behalf, and the public didn’t demand a referendum...?It is theoretically possible to leave but I don’t think it can work in practice with the balance of power. RoI won’t want a separation from Ulster and DUP won’t want a separation from UK. Perhaps Republic of Ireland needs to get on board and leave too
simoid said:
amusingduck said:
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
Implicit consent each time our elected politicians made decisions on our behalf, and the public didn’t demand a referendum...?It is theoretically possible to leave but I don’t think it can work in practice with the balance of power. RoI won’t want a separation from Ulster and DUP won’t want a separation from UK. Perhaps Republic of Ireland needs to get on board and leave too
If RoI and the UK established an FTA with the EU, and with each other, and both joined NAFTA, we'd both be much better off than we are today.
simoid said:
amusingduck said:
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
Implicit consent each time our elected politicians made decisions on our behalf, and the public didn’t demand a referendum...?It is theoretically possible to leave but I don’t think it can work in practice with the balance of power. RoI won’t want a separation from Ulster and DUP won’t want a separation from UK. Perhaps Republic of Ireland needs to get on board and leave too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884
bbc said:
2004: Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair says a referendum will be held on ratification of the European Constitution Treaty but does not name a date for the poll
2005: Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all promise a referendum on whether to ratify the EU Constitution in their general election manifestos. France and the Netherlands reject the proposal in referendums
2006: The cross-party Better Off Out Group, seeking the UK's withdrawal from the EU, is launched
2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from the Lisbon process if he becomes PM
2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties
Implied consent is nowhere near substantive enough to justify our elected representatives handing their duties over to people unanswerable to the voting public IMO.2005: Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all promise a referendum on whether to ratify the EU Constitution in their general election manifestos. France and the Netherlands reject the proposal in referendums
2006: The cross-party Better Off Out Group, seeking the UK's withdrawal from the EU, is launched
2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from the Lisbon process if he becomes PM
2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties
amusingduck said:
simoid said:
amusingduck said:
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
Implicit consent each time our elected politicians made decisions on our behalf, and the public didn’t demand a referendum...?It is theoretically possible to leave but I don’t think it can work in practice with the balance of power. RoI won’t want a separation from Ulster and DUP won’t want a separation from UK. Perhaps Republic of Ireland needs to get on board and leave too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884
bbc said:
2004: Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair says a referendum will be held on ratification of the European Constitution Treaty but does not name a date for the poll
2005: Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all promise a referendum on whether to ratify the EU Constitution in their general election manifestos. France and the Netherlands reject the proposal in referendums
2006: The cross-party Better Off Out Group, seeking the UK's withdrawal from the EU, is launched
2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from the Lisbon process if he becomes PM
2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties
Implied consent is nowhere near substantive enough to justify our elected representatives handing their duties over to people unanswerable to the voting public IMO.2005: Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats all promise a referendum on whether to ratify the EU Constitution in their general election manifestos. France and the Netherlands reject the proposal in referendums
2006: The cross-party Better Off Out Group, seeking the UK's withdrawal from the EU, is launched
2007: The European Commission proposes a replacement treaty, which comes to be known as the Lisbon Treaty. The Labour government says it is a different document, amending not overwriting existing treaties, and a referendum is not needed. Conservative leader David Cameron gives a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on any treaty emerging from the Lisbon process if he becomes PM
2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties
However, if the government had taken the UK out of the EU in 2016 the same way it took the UK into it, they would be protesting, screaming, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, launching legal challenges etc which is pretty much as we have seen from the remainers antics, following the result of the 2016 peoples vote.
As stated before an example of, the biased highly selective double standards version of `democracy' some, (but fortunately not all) remainers prefer.
Some fortunately, have the decency to respect a democratic vote, even when if it does not go the way they wanted it to. The anti democrats however do not.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Strange how some have no problem with the un democratic way the people of the UK were taken into the EU in the first place, without being given a vote on the matter let alone information on which to make a choice on the decision.
However, if the government had taken the UK out of the EU in 2016 the same way it took the UK into it, they would be protesting, screaming, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, launching legal challenges etc which is pretty much as we have seen from the remainers antics, following the result of the 2016 peoples vote.
As stated before an example of, the biased highly selective double standards version of `democracy' some, (but fortunately not all) remainers prefer.
Some fortunately, have the decency to respect a democratic vote, even when if it does not go the way they wanted it to. The anti democrats however do not.
It’s a bit different when we edge in little by little over decades in incremental decisions by successive governments - this can happen. A government making a decision to remove all at once is clearly unrealistic. If we had a series of eurosceptic governments who allowed a divergence from EU policy then perhaps it would be more realistic.However, if the government had taken the UK out of the EU in 2016 the same way it took the UK into it, they would be protesting, screaming, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, launching legal challenges etc which is pretty much as we have seen from the remainers antics, following the result of the 2016 peoples vote.
As stated before an example of, the biased highly selective double standards version of `democracy' some, (but fortunately not all) remainers prefer.
Some fortunately, have the decency to respect a democratic vote, even when if it does not go the way they wanted it to. The anti democrats however do not.
(Although, thinking about it, we never have gone all in with opening our borders and joining the Euro etc anyway)
amusingduck said:
simoid said:
I’ve learnt that sometimes the UK public vote for the impossible.
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
Max_Torque said:
eh? It's totally possible to leave and always has been. All WE have to do is to trigger Art50 and we're out. It's nothing to do with the EU. They provide the exit mechanism, it's up to US to use it!
The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
I'm sure many people voted remain for different reasons and if it had gone 52/48 the other way we would be steaming ahead.The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
No legal challenges etc.
Max_Torque said:
eh? It's totally possible to leave and always has been. All WE have to do is to trigger Art50 and we're out. It's nothing to do with the EU. They provide the exit mechanism, it's up to US to use it!
The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
A rare dose of common sense. There's plenty been done wrong on both sides. Project fear was bloody stupid in hindsight as were lots of things on the leave side. I really don't believe the EU is a force for evil. Look at the opportunities it's given not just Europeans but us. I know loads of people that work in Europe. I export a lot of stuff to Europe and travel to Europe regularly. I've really enjoyed seeing it as just another part of the same country. The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
fridaypassion said:
A rare dose of common sense. There's plenty been done wrong on both sides. Project fear was bloody stupid in hindsight as were lots of things on the leave side. I really don't believe the EU is a force for evil. Look at the opportunities it's given not just Europeans but us. I know loads of people that work in Europe. I export a lot of stuff to Europe and travel to Europe regularly. I've really enjoyed seeing it as just another part of the same country.
All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
Not when the confirmatory vote comes along from Labour, LibDem, SNP and other remoany votes All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
Down and out said:
I'm sure many people voted remain for different reasons and if it had gone 52/48 the other way we would be steaming ahead.
No legal challenges etc.
Of course, but remain keeps the status quo, so people know what it is. Leave means moving to something different, but there are a range of somethings different, different leavers voted for different versions.No legal challenges etc.
fridaypassion said:
Max_Torque said:
eh? It's totally possible to leave and always has been. All WE have to do is to trigger Art50 and we're out. It's nothing to do with the EU. They provide the exit mechanism, it's up to US to use it!
The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
A rare dose of common sense. There's plenty been done wrong on both sides. Project fear was bloody stupid in hindsight as were lots of things on the leave side. I really don't believe the EU is a force for evil. Look at the opportunities it's given not just Europeans but us. I know loads of people that work in Europe. I export a lot of stuff to Europe and travel to Europe regularly. I've really enjoyed seeing it as just another part of the same country. The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
This sort of view is not about fanaticism.
The emotion and anger displayed by some leave enthusiasts appears somewhat misguided and misdirected.
Max_Torque said:
amusingduck said:
simoid said:
I’ve learnt that sometimes the UK public vote for the impossible.
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
blueg33 said:
Of course, but remain keeps the status quo, so people know what it is. Leave means moving to something different, but there are a range of somethings different, different leavers voted for different versions.
Sure, the EU has remained the same for 40 years and nothing about it will change in the next 40...fridaypassion said:
A rare dose of common sense. There's plenty been done wrong on both sides. Project fear was bloody stupid in hindsight as were lots of things on the leave side. I really don't believe the EU is a force for evil. Look at the opportunities it's given not just Europeans but us. I know loads of people that work in Europe. I export a lot of stuff to Europe and travel to Europe regularly. I've really enjoyed seeing it as just another part of the same country.
All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
We're building a wall are we? Or are all future flights and ferries cancelled forever once we leave? All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
MC Bodge said:
fridaypassion said:
Max_Torque said:
eh? It's totally possible to leave and always has been. All WE have to do is to trigger Art50 and we're out. It's nothing to do with the EU. They provide the exit mechanism, it's up to US to use it!
The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
A rare dose of common sense. There's plenty been done wrong on both sides. Project fear was bloody stupid in hindsight as were lots of things on the leave side. I really don't believe the EU is a force for evil. Look at the opportunities it's given not just Europeans but us. I know loads of people that work in Europe. I export a lot of stuff to Europe and travel to Europe regularly. I've really enjoyed seeing it as just another part of the same country. The real issue is that there simply isn't an actual, practical MAJORITY, which our entire system of democracy requires, who want to all leave in the same way. All the Leavers each had their own reason to vote leave (depending on their subjective views, because there was no objective data or discussion) and pretty much all those reasons were different and in opposition to each other, hence the mess we find ourselves in now......
We see this time after time in discussions on Brexit, this "EU are the devil" or "EU are taking our jobs" or "EU are taking our money" and it is, and always has been complete rubbish. It's OUR choice, OUR vote. We apparently left to "take back control" but it turns out we already actually had control, but were too stupid to know how to use it...........
All this talk of "take back control" tosh. There's a statistic somewhere but THE UK have vioted through 99.8% of all EU legislation and proposed a good portion of it. We had a seat right at the top table but got to keep control over our own interest rates. Generations to come will laugh at us for giving that up and laugh even harder at the mess it's caused afterwards!
This sort of view is not about fanaticism.
The emotion and anger displayed by some leave enthusiasts appears somewhat misguided and misdirected.
We have all learned things in our formative years from parents and teachers and fear to question these or be seen to be acting against them. What we have learned has differed between generations. For the older generation this is often that it's important to have pride in your nation. For a younger generation, it is often that it's important to treat everyone equally regardless of race and gender.
To persuade people of your point of view, to keep your current supporters, it is important to understand their fears and reinforce that these are under threat. To try and win those opposed to you over to your side of the argument, you need to reinforce that their fears are not under threat. This is far more important than a rational argument.
To persuade people of your point of view, to keep your current supporters, it is important to understand their fears and reinforce that these are under threat. To try and win those opposed to you over to your side of the argument, you need to reinforce that their fears are not under threat. This is far more important than a rational argument.
amusingduck said:
Max_Torque said:
amusingduck said:
simoid said:
I’ve learnt that sometimes the UK public vote for the impossible.
With whose consent were we signed up to an EU that's impossible to leave?
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