How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 13)
Discussion
Tuna said:
I wasn't calling anyone names, I was describing an attitude of responding to anything as though the sky is falling in.
In two words, it's possible to get the idea across without making a meal of it.
Are you trying to tell me that my Kentucky chicken didn't actually come from Kentucky?In two words, it's possible to get the idea across without making a meal of it.
stongle said:
Vanden Saab said:
Or may be we have already signed an agreement with the USA to protect Scotch Whisky and Irish whiskey, Tennessee whiskey and bourbon...
I was taking the piss. But I do wonder, if maybe there are more pressing issues to resolve. When I go to a bar, I don't order "a lager" or a "champagne"; but I'd order "2 pints of Brooklyn, pack of pork scratchings and a L'Ermitage for the Doris; please Jeff". I tend to know exactly what I want. The whole regional naming thing really seems to me to be some sort of protectionist BS. Probably why the EC is so keen on it.What am I missing here?
All this is about trademark. You can call a product whatever you like but a pork pie made in Melton Mowbray is no different to a Nike T-Shirt made in a Nike factory. Neither wants someone else ripping off their trademark.
stongle said:
Ok, I must have missed something. If it's generally a good thing, why change it. Just cos BREXIT doesn't mean we have to diverge or bin off all good bits of legislation or trade rules.
Oh indeed. Zero need, nor desire to change.
It was all prompted by a certain poster claiming we'd lose the European market, as it was a trump card in negotiations, and no rolling over, no protections for our goods under these two schemes. Much like he could buy champagne from Cali in the US but not here, the French could buy Stilton made in Czechia and that would f
k our producers. Then it was pointed out just three EU nations have ten times the protected goods we do, we're a massive consumer of them, and the balance wasn't tipped the EU's way (oh, and these things have been around for a lot longer than the EU...).
So then said poster switched to 'wasn't worried about the EU, but the US will ride roughshod over us' - which was then pointed out as already being the case, and nothing to do with the EU, or actually under a protection in the US (see bourbon/scotch) regardless of brexit.
As I've said, there are a couple of posters who seem to struggle with actually having a cogent argument, backed up by knowledge, experience and data. Instead relying solely on anecdote and assertion - and twisting their own argument to suit as every basis for it gets removed...
It’s good to see some agreement that there is no point on changing some agreements, and to do so would be detrimental to all parties.
Sounds like a very soft brexit in that area.
It will be interesting to see the changes we want that lead to benefits.
Javid is taking a tough stance and is threatening business than they should be ready for a very “unaligned” brexit as they’ve had since 2016 (despite the govt promising a very aligned brexit since only 12 months ago). Assume he isn’t aiming to allow Somerset Champagne.
Sounds like a very soft brexit in that area.
It will be interesting to see the changes we want that lead to benefits.
Javid is taking a tough stance and is threatening business than they should be ready for a very “unaligned” brexit as they’ve had since 2016 (despite the govt promising a very aligned brexit since only 12 months ago). Assume he isn’t aiming to allow Somerset Champagne.
Staggering that something recognised pretty much globally except the US (and increasing in the US, even if poorly) continuing can be somehow claimed as a "very soft brexit".
Made me laugh over my morning coffee (made with beans grown and processed ex-EU that are globally protected named products)...
In this case, from a very specific region of India, matured by sea winds in special shacks on the beach. The slightly salted caramel addition is just lovely.
Made me laugh over my morning coffee (made with beans grown and processed ex-EU that are globally protected named products)...
In this case, from a very specific region of India, matured by sea winds in special shacks on the beach. The slightly salted caramel addition is just lovely.
DeepEnd said:
It’s good to see some agreement that there is no point on changing some agreements, and to do so would be detrimental to all parties.
Sounds like a very soft brexit in that area.
It will be interesting to see the changes we want that lead to benefits.
Javid is taking a tough stance and is threatening business than they should be ready for a very “unaligned” brexit as they’ve had since 2016 (despite the govt promising a very aligned brexit since only 12 months ago). Assume he isn’t aiming to allow Somerset Champagne.
The key point is that we won’t tie ourselves to their regulations. We might remain aligned for now, but if we want to change in the future we can do so.Sounds like a very soft brexit in that area.
It will be interesting to see the changes we want that lead to benefits.
Javid is taking a tough stance and is threatening business than they should be ready for a very “unaligned” brexit as they’ve had since 2016 (despite the govt promising a very aligned brexit since only 12 months ago). Assume he isn’t aiming to allow Somerset Champagne.
loafer123 said:
The key point is that we won’t tie ourselves to their regulations. We might remain aligned for now, but if we want to change in the future we can do so.
It's just poor reporting again, trying to stir up st for a headline.The reality is that there can no longer be any presumption of automatic alignment, But on day 1 we will still be totally aligned. Digression will be gradual. Anybody that thought differently is either an idiot or a wind-up merchant.
loafer123 said:
The key point is that we won’t tie ourselves to their regulations. We might remain aligned for now, but if we want to change in the future we can do so.
Important pedantry - it's not "alignment" in any way. It's "recognition". Which is utterly separate. As my protected Indian coffee beans show.
"recognition" of general global regs is not anything like a "very soft brexit" some seem to be desperately grasping for any glimpse of.
Sway said:
Forbes nails it pretty well...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/...
The point, is that when it comes to food especially, the US (even the upscale, expensive places) really aren't very specific in their nuances and understanding of these things.
So Parmigiano-reggiano, labelled as such, sold in the US will be 'proper' parmesan cheese. However, parmesan isn't protected - and so you get dozens if not hundreds of cheap ste sold - and American consumers lap it up. They simply do not notice the difference. Import tariffs, and "proper" production methods/ingredients, mean that it's so expensive virtually no one buys it.
The US consumer just doesn't give a st. Hence the US regulations don't give a st. The practices, labelling standards, etc. are simply appalling and no one cares.
This is pretty obvious to anyone who's spent time in the US, and pays attention to their food (and it's ingredients) - and to be fair, isn't just specific to food. Hence 'model year' is king when it comes to cars - the market perception is very simple and unsophisticed, if it is newer it is therefore better. Even if the changes from year to year are nothing more than a different colour scheme and a different wheel option. Oddly, the average US consumer is exceptionally well versed in noticing these differences.
It's odd. But then, so is the US. Land of the Free - yet every shop, restaurant or workplace you enter has three quarters of it's doors covered in legal statements telling you exactly what you cannot do. Every food package points out that the State of California is certain that it'll cause cancer. And so on. The most conformist, regulated nation on earth - claimed from the rooftops to be the "land of the free".
I'm really into my "proper" BBQ. Love smoking a big lump of meat for up to 36 hours. Amusingly, recent trends in the UK has been for "USDA Brisket" (to be fair, grain fed brisket compared to our grass fed is a LOT more forgiving and a lot juicier). When you actually look into it - USDA in itself means nothing. All meat from the US is USDA approved. The top grade "USDA Prime" has certification based purely on appearance... It's meaningless - yet demands a pretty chunky premium.
Oh, and it's all legal in the UK/EU as long as it hasn't come from stocks pumped full of antibiotics.
I've spent a fair bit of time in the US working - I love the place in the main. Sophistication just isn't in their culture though, and I always without fail feel like ste after a month there even though I try my best to "eat well". You simply can't, unless a millionaire and in a couple of very specific places.
As always, there are exceptions - none of the absolutes I've stated truly are - but those exceptions are in a staggeringly tiny minority.
One thing I will say is taste wise, if not actual quality, they absolutely smash it. Some of the tastiest meals I've ever eaten have been in little places in Bumfknowhere, Middle America - but I'd hate to know the actual provenance and practices involved in the supply chain!
That isn't going to change. Regardless of trade deal, "protections", or anything else.
I too have spent a lot of time in a lot of parts of the US, business and pleasure, East Coast, West Coast, Mid West, North in winter, Florida in the sun, and would agree with your post.https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/...
The point, is that when it comes to food especially, the US (even the upscale, expensive places) really aren't very specific in their nuances and understanding of these things.
So Parmigiano-reggiano, labelled as such, sold in the US will be 'proper' parmesan cheese. However, parmesan isn't protected - and so you get dozens if not hundreds of cheap s
te sold - and American consumers lap it up. They simply do not notice the difference. Import tariffs, and "proper" production methods/ingredients, mean that it's so expensive virtually no one buys it. The US consumer just doesn't give a s
t. Hence the US regulations don't give a st. The practices, labelling standards, etc. are simply appalling and no one cares. This is pretty obvious to anyone who's spent time in the US, and pays attention to their food (and it's ingredients) - and to be fair, isn't just specific to food. Hence 'model year' is king when it comes to cars - the market perception is very simple and unsophisticed, if it is newer it is therefore better. Even if the changes from year to year are nothing more than a different colour scheme and a different wheel option. Oddly, the average US consumer is exceptionally well versed in noticing these differences.
It's odd. But then, so is the US. Land of the Free - yet every shop, restaurant or workplace you enter has three quarters of it's doors covered in legal statements telling you exactly what you cannot do. Every food package points out that the State of California is certain that it'll cause cancer. And so on. The most conformist, regulated nation on earth - claimed from the rooftops to be the "land of the free".
I'm really into my "proper" BBQ. Love smoking a big lump of meat for up to 36 hours. Amusingly, recent trends in the UK has been for "USDA Brisket" (to be fair, grain fed brisket compared to our grass fed is a LOT more forgiving and a lot juicier). When you actually look into it - USDA in itself means nothing. All meat from the US is USDA approved. The top grade "USDA Prime" has certification based purely on appearance... It's meaningless - yet demands a pretty chunky premium.
Oh, and it's all legal in the UK/EU as long as it hasn't come from stocks pumped full of antibiotics.
I've spent a fair bit of time in the US working - I love the place in the main. Sophistication just isn't in their culture though, and I always without fail feel like s
te after a month there even though I try my best to "eat well". You simply can't, unless a millionaire and in a couple of very specific places. As always, there are exceptions - none of the absolutes I've stated truly are - but those exceptions are in a staggeringly tiny minority.
One thing I will say is taste wise, if not actual quality, they absolutely smash it. Some of the tastiest meals I've ever eaten have been in little places in Bumf
knowhere, Middle America - but I'd hate to know the actual provenance and practices involved in the supply chain!That isn't going to change. Regardless of trade deal, "protections", or anything else.
The vast, vast majority would not know decent food from dross, let alone be able to eat it with cutlery. Even in the educated, metropolitan areas, you will see grown, otherwise bright, functional adults, cretinous lay struggling with their fighting irons at dinner. To expect them to follow the nuance of how real Parma ham is cured is, frankly, the least of their culinary shortcomings.
There are exceptions, but these are statistically rare.
They have a very shallow perception of quality; hence the general cheapness of interior finish of most of their motors.
They are, as you say, very conservative and very 'ruled'. It is amazing how compliant they are.
If this sounds like an anti-US rant, it is not, there are many things to commend the place and the people, but their general attitude to food is not one of them.
On the matter of grain fed, rather than grass fed meat, there is discussion about how the food your food eats might affect you. There is a theory that eating corn fed meat can overload middle aged males with oestrogen which is not good, unless you actually want to grow moobs and lose testosterone.
Digga said:
If this sounds like an anti-US rant, it is not, there are many things to commend the place and the people, but their general attitude to food is not one of them.
On the matter of grain fed, rather than grass fed meat, there is discussion about how the food your food eats might affect you. There is a theory that eating corn fed meat can overload middle aged males with oestrogen which is not good, unless you actually want to grow moobs and lose testosterone.
Absolutely not a slur on the US, merely an observation of our cultural differences.
Also agree on grain vs grass beef. I'll accept the "more challenging" cook of a grass fed full brisket.
There's a neat segue to many of the drivers of protected foods of animal origin - many have their characteristics due to a historically unique diet caused by specific local conditions.
So not just health differences, but flavour ones to. I know a chap who is certain he can tell what season a wood pigeon was shot in, based on it's flavour - staggeringly, I've never managed to find him wrong.
Sway said:
As is typical, I find myself in agreement chap.
Absolutely not a slur on the US, merely an observation of our cultural differences.
Also agree on grain vs grass beef. I'll accept the "more challenging" cook of a grass fed full brisket.
There's a neat segue to many of the drivers of protected foods of animal origin - many have their characteristics due to a historically unique diet caused by specific local conditions.
So not just health differences, but flavour ones to. I know a chap who is certain he can tell what season a wood pigeon was shot in, based on it's flavour - staggeringly, I've never managed to find him wrong.
The creation of a Parma ham is an odyssey in and of itself. Incredible.Absolutely not a slur on the US, merely an observation of our cultural differences.
Also agree on grain vs grass beef. I'll accept the "more challenging" cook of a grass fed full brisket.
There's a neat segue to many of the drivers of protected foods of animal origin - many have their characteristics due to a historically unique diet caused by specific local conditions.
So not just health differences, but flavour ones to. I know a chap who is certain he can tell what season a wood pigeon was shot in, based on it's flavour - staggeringly, I've never managed to find him wrong.
I can imagine people who eat well having a very sensitive palate.
Personally, I am very, very fussy about eggs - I believe better sourced ones are just so much tastier and nutritious.
Digga said:
The creation of a Parma ham is an odyssey in and of itself. Incredible.
I can imagine people who eat well having a very sensitive palate.
Personally, I am very, very fussy about eggs - I believe better sourced ones are just so much tastier and nutritious.
I have developed my palate quite a bit, through enjoyment. I can imagine people who eat well having a very sensitive palate.
Personally, I am very, very fussy about eggs - I believe better sourced ones are just so much tastier and nutritious.
Amazingly, and surprisingly, it doesn't have to cost extra. See my example of Co-Op own brand west country cheddar (the protected form of cheddar...) vs Cathedral City. The Co-Op one is actually cheaper than CC, even when CC is on it's permanent offers...
Veering off topic there is a huge and growing backlash in the US against “Big Food”, the travails of Kraft Heinz are as obvious a bellwether as you’ll find in that regard.
The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 19th January 11:32
Brooking10 said:
Veering of topic there is a huge and growing backlash in the US against “Big Food”, the travails of Kraft Heinz are as obvious a bellwether as you’ll find in that regard.
The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
Indeed. The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
I'd challenge the "eat very well" but though - as explained, even in upmarket places the rules permit some s
tty practices (such as "lobster" that is anything but, and "Kobe beef" that's actually US produced utter ste!) - both exceptionally tasty, and damned expensive, but not "eating well". Fortunately, the expensive steak I ate was on expenses. Annoyingly, it means I've still not managed to try true Kobe wagyu beef... One day...
Should probably plan it, to cook myself. Direct on the coals for seconds (as in 'on' the lump wood coals, not on a grill 'over' lump wood) and then served on a salt block. Perhaps I should start a GoFundMe!
Sway said:
Brooking10 said:
Veering of topic there is a huge and growing backlash in the US against “Big Food”, the travails of Kraft Heinz are as obvious a bellwether as you’ll find in that regard.
The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
Indeed. The flip side though is that the sheer scale of the market and generations of what has been deemed acceptable will take an awful long time to cause change.
It is however easy to eat very well in the US especially in the major metropolitan areas but it takes a little more effort perhaps given that volume, cost and convenience have been the guiding factors for so long.
I'd challenge the "eat very well" but though - as explained, even in upmarket places the rules permit some s
tty practices (such as "lobster" that is anything but, and "Kobe beef" that's actually US produced utter ste!) - both exceptionally tasty, and damned expensive, but not "eating well". Fortunately, the expensive steak I ate was on expenses. Annoyingly, it means I've still not managed to try true Kobe wagyu beef... One day...
Should probably plan it, to cook myself. Direct on the coals for seconds (as in 'on' the lump wood coals, not on a grill 'over' lump wood) and then served on a salt block. Perhaps I should start a GoFundMe!
They’re even leading the way in meat free products now.
Sway said:
Fortunately, the expensive steak I ate was on expenses. Annoyingly, it means I've still not managed to try true Kobe wagyu beef... One day...
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