How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 13)
Discussion
DeepEnd said:
Your analysis is the unbiased common sense view of the situation, no doubt about to be twisted as some kind of “EU lover nonsense”.
The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
Yawn. It's a fact, the UKs GDP is the same as the 16 smallest EU nations combined. Hence the initial assertion made by Deltona was incorrect that the economic conditions of 1 country leaving Versus 27 would be the same, it's not.The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
It's also a fact that that the ECB has rubbished FoM as contribution to undermining its inflationary goals. A goal that helps reduce overall debt servicing cost, something that's an issue if in France, Belgium, Spain, Italy and Greece your debt to GDP ratio is just about at 100% or above. Pre corona.
Get over it.
And please less of the kipper insults, or is that all you have in the gamebag? Factually you are adrift in the shallow puddle as usual. Or too ignorant to bother reading - since I'm clear my objection to FoM is the firms using it for advantage, not the migration of workers.
Oh, that doesnt compute your twisted one dimensional view of the world.
More of the usual lalalalalalalalalala, anyone whose doesnt agree with me is a BRACIST crap.
Grow up.
Edited by stongle on Saturday 28th March 08:40
DeepEnd said:
Your analysis is the unbiased common sense view of the situation, no doubt about to be twisted as some kind of “EU lover nonsense”.
The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
Ask the nurse for some stronger meds dear !!!The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
DeepEnd said:
Your analysis is the unbiased common sense view of the situation, no doubt about to be twisted as some kind of “EU lover nonsense”.
The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
If all freedoms are benefits, why doesn’t the EU offer free movement of labour to the rest of the world?The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
Why doesn’t it offer free trade in goods and services to the rest of the world?
stongle said:
Yawn. It's a fact, the UKs GDP is the same as the 16 smallest EU nations combined. Hence the initial assertion made by Deltona was incorrect that the economic conditions of 1 country leaving Versus 27 would be the same, it's not.
It's also a fact that that the ECB has rubbished FoM as contribution to undermining its inflationary goals. A goal that helps reduce overall debt servicing cost, something that's an issue if in France, Belgium, Spain, Italy and Greece your debt to GDP ratio is just about at 100% or above. Pre corona.
Get over it.
And please less of the kipper insults, or is that all you have in the gamebag? Factually you are adrift in the shallow puddle as usual. Or too ignorant to bother reading - since I'm clear my objection to FoM is the firms using it for advantage, not the migration of workers.
Oh, that doesnt compute your twisted one dimensional view of the world.
More of the usual lalalalalalalalalala, anyone whose doesnt agree with me is a BRACIST crap.
Grow up.
Everyone knows what playbook you were digging into were saying by saying “we’re bigger than the smallest 16” as if that were some killer fact. It’s Nigel level nonsense. It's also a fact that that the ECB has rubbished FoM as contribution to undermining its inflationary goals. A goal that helps reduce overall debt servicing cost, something that's an issue if in France, Belgium, Spain, Italy and Greece your debt to GDP ratio is just about at 100% or above. Pre corona.
Get over it.
And please less of the kipper insults, or is that all you have in the gamebag? Factually you are adrift in the shallow puddle as usual. Or too ignorant to bother reading - since I'm clear my objection to FoM is the firms using it for advantage, not the migration of workers.
Oh, that doesnt compute your twisted one dimensional view of the world.
More of the usual lalalalalalalalalala, anyone whose doesnt agree with me is a BRACIST crap.
Grow up.
Edited by stongle on Saturday 28th March 08:40
That it is numerically correct doesn’t change it’s obvious kipper like extremist origins - I’m surprised you stooped to use such a revealing junk soundbite.
It was you that started moaning about the forth freedom and your clearly passionate objection to it.
SpeckledJim said:
DeepEnd said:
Your analysis is the unbiased common sense view of the situation, no doubt about to be twisted as some kind of “EU lover nonsense”.
The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
If all freedoms are benefits, why doesn’t the EU offer free movement of labour to the rest of the world?The “we’re bigger than 16” is junk rhetoric worthy only of Kipper and Brexit Central fantasy propaganda sites.
And then we’re into the distorted world view that can’t see all 4 freedoms as, well freedoms and hence benefits.
Why doesn’t it offer free trade in goods and services to the rest of the world?
SpeckledJim said:
If all freedoms are benefits, why doesn’t the EU offer free movement of labour to the rest of the world?
Are you campaigning for the UK to do that unilaterally now? No, of course you aren't.SpeckledJim said:
Why doesn’t it offer free trade in goods and services to the rest of the world?
Are you campaigning for the UK to do that unilaterally now? No, of course you aren't.Again, simple one liners from the usual playbook.
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove 
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
DeepEnd said:
Everyone knows what playbook you were digging into were saying by saying “we’re bigger than the smallest 16” as if that were some killer fact. It’s Nigel level nonsense.
That it is numerically correct doesn’t change it’s obvious kipper like extremist origins - I’m surprised you stooped to use such a revealing junk soundbite.
It was you that started moaning about the forth freedom and your clearly passionate objection to it.
But the fourth freedom whilst socially ideal, is economically a bag of bolts. That's my objection to it. Its hugely relevent to the economics of the EU as it stands today, and the problems of a post Corona world. Its, well I assume not kipper logic at all. Not that I listen to kipper / BREXIT Central PR, but I assume it's not long on the "positive inflation effect on debt servicing" or the positives for and against "implicit Vs explicit regulation". But I'm not dialed in to it. That it is numerically correct doesn’t change it’s obvious kipper like extremist origins - I’m surprised you stooped to use such a revealing junk soundbite.
It was you that started moaning about the forth freedom and your clearly passionate objection to it.
The reason I used the GDP equiv to 16, is to countenance the suggestion UK leaving would be the same as any of the other 27. It's not, but nor did I say the impact to us would be less than the EU whole.
The benefits for BREXIT to the UK are largely not BREXIT at all, but force an economic and political shift. Maybe we didnt need BREXIT to usher that in, perhaps Corona would've (actually likely) done it anyway - but without an inflection point to throw all the wrongs at the wall or ask the correct questions, nothing will change.
Rather than turn every argument against Remain into "kipper" central, look at the point or argument itself. I can recognise the negatives of the fringe anti immigration BREXIT argument. On the whole immigration is positive. The same has to ho for those supporting the EU - it's not perfect. If you dumb down every argument to good = freedoms of the EU / bad = kipper racists; you dismiss the complexity of the question at hand. There are no 100% right or wrong answers here; just shades of grey.
Calling everything kipper central is replaying the nonsense bus b
ks (for and against) from 4 years ago. There simply are not the volume of BREXIT extremists with racist views out there you default post too. Its insulting. DeepEnd said:
stongle said:
Yawn. It's a fact, the UKs GDP is the same as the 16 smallest EU nations combined. Hence the initial assertion made by Deltona was incorrect that the economic conditions of 1 country leaving Versus 27 would be the same, it's not.
It's also a fact that that the ECB has rubbished FoM as contribution to undermining its inflationary goals. A goal that helps reduce overall debt servicing cost, something that's an issue if in France, Belgium, Spain, Italy and Greece your debt to GDP ratio is just about at 100% or above. Pre corona.
Get over it.
And please less of the kipper insults, or is that all you have in the gamebag? Factually you are adrift in the shallow puddle as usual. Or too ignorant to bother reading - since I'm clear my objection to FoM is the firms using it for advantage, not the migration of workers.
Oh, that doesnt compute your twisted one dimensional view of the world.
More of the usual lalalalalalalalalala, anyone whose doesnt agree with me is a BRACIST crap.
Grow up.
Everyone knows what playbook you were digging into were saying by saying “we’re bigger than the smallest 16” as if that were some killer fact. It’s Nigel level nonsense. It's also a fact that that the ECB has rubbished FoM as contribution to undermining its inflationary goals. A goal that helps reduce overall debt servicing cost, something that's an issue if in France, Belgium, Spain, Italy and Greece your debt to GDP ratio is just about at 100% or above. Pre corona.
Get over it.
And please less of the kipper insults, or is that all you have in the gamebag? Factually you are adrift in the shallow puddle as usual. Or too ignorant to bother reading - since I'm clear my objection to FoM is the firms using it for advantage, not the migration of workers.
Oh, that doesnt compute your twisted one dimensional view of the world.
More of the usual lalalalalalalalalala, anyone whose doesnt agree with me is a BRACIST crap.
Grow up.
Edited by stongle on Saturday 28th March 08:40
That it is numerically correct doesn’t change it’s obvious kipper like extremist origins - I’m surprised you stooped to use such a revealing junk soundbite.
It was you that started moaning about the forth freedom and your clearly passionate objection to it.
What we definitely know is Italy was in dire straits even before Coronavirus and will need exceptional stimulus (as in being allowed to be exceptional in their divergence from Eurozone budgetary rules) if they are to ever recover.
We also know that the largest holding of Italian debt was... French banks. So they are also, now, pretty much screwed.
We know Germany and the Netherlands are viewing the crossroads of pan-Eurozone fiscal and banking union with some trepidation.
All bets are off. Certainly, couching arguments - either pro or anti Brexit - based on pre Coronavirus logic, let alone pre Brexit is ridiculous.
amusingduck said:
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
You find it "refreshing" to read about food shortages elsewhere?Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
30% of our food comes from the EU, so your joy may bite you on the arse.
Note the EU are controlling their internal borders as required by this crisis.
Edited by DeepEnd on Saturday 28th March 09:41
DeepEnd said:
amusingduck said:
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
You find it "refreshing" to read about food shortages elsewhere?Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
30% of our food comes from the EU, so your joy may bite you on the arse.
Note the EU are controlling their internal borders as required by this crisis.
The EU are controlling their internal borders, are they? Seems like it's the members looking out for themselves and betraying the reality that when it comes down to it, there is no cuddly heartwarming unity in the EU and it's every man for their self.
If the crisis requires controlling internal borders, why are French/Italian (iirc) patients being sent to Germany for treatment? Why aren't we controlling OUR internal borders, or the USA? It doesn't require internal border lockdown, that's why. That's what the members decided was best for them whilst the EU were looking at their shoes.
It's never been more clear that the EU is a trading bloc that's outgrown it's remit. You must be devastated
amusingduck said:
DeepEnd said:
amusingduck said:
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
You find it "refreshing" to read about food shortages elsewhere?Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
30% of our food comes from the EU, so your joy may bite you on the arse.
Note the EU are controlling their internal borders as required by this crisis.
The EU are controlling their internal borders, are they? Seems like it's the members looking out for themselves and betraying the reality that when it comes down to it, there is no cuddly heartwarming unity in the EU and it's every man for their self.
If the crisis requires controlling internal borders, why are French/Italian (iirc) patients being sent to Germany for treatment? Why aren't we controlling OUR internal borders, or the USA? It doesn't require internal border lockdown, that's why. That's what the members decided was best for them whilst the EU were looking at their shoes.
It's never been more clear that the EU is a trading bloc that's outgrown it's remit. You must be devastated
stongle said:
But the fourth freedom whilst socially ideal, is economically a bag of bolts. That's my objection to it. Its hugely relevent to the economics of the EU as it stands today, and the problems of a post Corona world. Its, well I assume not kipper logic at all. Not that I listen to kipper / BREXIT Central PR, but I assume it's not long on the "positive inflation effect on debt servicing" or the positives for and against "implicit Vs explicit regulation". But I'm not dialed in to it.
The reason I used the GDP equiv to 16, is to countenance the suggestion UK leaving would be the same as any of the other 27. It's not, but nor did I say the impact to us would be less than the EU whole.
The benefits for BREXIT to the UK are largely not BREXIT at all, but force an economic and political shift. Maybe we didnt need BREXIT to usher that in, perhaps Corona would've (actually likely) done it anyway - but without an inflection point to throw all the wrongs at the wall or ask the correct questions, nothing will change.
Rather than turn every argument against Remain into "kipper" central, look at the point or argument itself. I can recognise the negatives of the fringe anti immigration BREXIT argument. On the whole immigration is positive. The same has to ho for those supporting the EU - it's not perfect. If you dumb down every argument to good = freedoms of the EU / bad = kipper racists; you dismiss the complexity of the question at hand. There are no 100% right or wrong answers here; just shades of grey.
Calling everything kipper central is replaying the nonsense bus bks (for and against) from 4 years ago. There simply are not the volume of BREXIT extremists with racist views out there you default post too. Its insulting.
Boiling our trade power with the EU down to "we're bigger than 16" is kipper central nonsense. It's exactly the sort of simplistic nonsense that get riled up about. The reason I used the GDP equiv to 16, is to countenance the suggestion UK leaving would be the same as any of the other 27. It's not, but nor did I say the impact to us would be less than the EU whole.
The benefits for BREXIT to the UK are largely not BREXIT at all, but force an economic and political shift. Maybe we didnt need BREXIT to usher that in, perhaps Corona would've (actually likely) done it anyway - but without an inflection point to throw all the wrongs at the wall or ask the correct questions, nothing will change.
Rather than turn every argument against Remain into "kipper" central, look at the point or argument itself. I can recognise the negatives of the fringe anti immigration BREXIT argument. On the whole immigration is positive. The same has to ho for those supporting the EU - it's not perfect. If you dumb down every argument to good = freedoms of the EU / bad = kipper racists; you dismiss the complexity of the question at hand. There are no 100% right or wrong answers here; just shades of grey.
Calling everything kipper central is replaying the nonsense bus b
ks (for and against) from 4 years ago. There simply are not the volume of BREXIT extremists with racist views out there you default post too. Its insulting. It is an insult to the intelligence - at least of some.
DeepEnd said:
SpeckledJim said:
If all freedoms are benefits, why doesn’t the EU offer free movement of labour to the rest of the world?
Are you campaigning for the UK to do that unilaterally now? No, of course you aren't.SpeckledJim said:
Why doesn’t it offer free trade in goods and services to the rest of the world?
Are you campaigning for the UK to do that unilaterally now? No, of course you aren't.Again, simple one liners from the usual playbook.
amusingduck said:
DeepEnd said:
amusingduck said:
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
You find it "refreshing" to read about food shortages elsewhere?Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
30% of our food comes from the EU, so your joy may bite you on the arse.
Note the EU are controlling their internal borders as required by this crisis.
The EU are controlling their internal borders, are they? Seems like it's the members looking out for themselves and betraying the reality that when it comes down to it, there is no cuddly heartwarming unity in the EU and it's every man for their self.
If the crisis requires controlling internal borders, why are French/Italian (iirc) patients being sent to Germany for treatment? Why aren't we controlling OUR internal borders, or the USA? It doesn't require internal border lockdown, that's why. That's what the members decided was best for them whilst the EU were looking at their shoes.
It's never been more clear that the EU is a trading bloc that's outgrown it's remit. You must be devastated
It is dangerously close to "EU having problems with food supply. Awful news, really awful."
Which I seem to recall is the sort of thing jumped upon around here as being rather nasty sentiment - which it is.
Don't double down now, that is even worse than the original offence.
DeepEnd said:
amusingduck said:
DeepEnd said:
amusingduck said:
Recent events have shone a great big spotlight on the blessed freedoms. They're, er, not free when push comes to shove
Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
You find it "refreshing" to read about food shortages elsewhere?Warnings of potential food shortages across the bloc, apparently.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavir...
It's most refreshing to be reading about their lackadaisical squabblings from outside of the tent
30% of our food comes from the EU, so your joy may bite you on the arse.
Note the EU are controlling their internal borders as required by this crisis.
The EU are controlling their internal borders, are they? Seems like it's the members looking out for themselves and betraying the reality that when it comes down to it, there is no cuddly heartwarming unity in the EU and it's every man for their self.
If the crisis requires controlling internal borders, why are French/Italian (iirc) patients being sent to Germany for treatment? Why aren't we controlling OUR internal borders, or the USA? It doesn't require internal border lockdown, that's why. That's what the members decided was best for them whilst the EU were looking at their shoes.
It's never been more clear that the EU is a trading bloc that's outgrown it's remit. You must be devastated
It is dangerously close to "EU having problems with food supply. Awful news, really awful."
Which I seem to recall is the sort of thing jumped upon around here as being rather nasty sentiment - which it is.
Don't double down now, that is even worse than the original offence.
. I have no problem with the people, only the shambolic EU that fails those very people every time a crisis pops up. Often a crisis of it's own making, and they're never far apart.We're in extraordinary times and the people of the EU need help, and that help is going to be subject to yet another round of ideological squabbling over what the EU is actually supposed to be, those wealthy northerners need to pay up, those lazy southerners need to cut their cloth, etc. I remember the narrative the EU created about the Greeks being a lazy workshy populace during the Euro crisis. I wonder if we'll see anyone else get smeared this time round.
B'stard Child said:
Four Freedoms came with a price - all "Paid for" or none - not everyone agrees they are benefits or even "freedoms" hence the decision in the UK - you had a vote I had a vote and they were both of equal weight same as every other person who took part
You didn't get the result you wanted 4 years ago when the referendum result came in..
You didn't get the result you wanted last year ago when the general election result came in...
At what point are you going to stop trying to fight battles that are long gone with comments like "kippers" and "bracists"
It's like fking groundhog day over and over again and to be honest you are not as funny as Bill Murray
DP is the living , breathing example of Cervantes main character.You didn't get the result you wanted 4 years ago when the referendum result came in..
You didn't get the result you wanted last year ago when the general election result came in...
At what point are you going to stop trying to fight battles that are long gone with comments like "kippers" and "bracists"
It's like f
king groundhog day over and over again and to be honest you are not as funny as Bill Murray DeepEnd said:
Boiling our trade power with the EU down to "we're bigger than 16" is kipper central nonsense. It's exactly the sort of simplistic nonsense that get riled up about.
It is an insult to the intelligence - at least of some.
Your drowning here, son. Going down like Jim Davidson at a Black Panther reunion I suspect.It is an insult to the intelligence - at least of some.
The point (in response to Deltona), that a UK or even Germany, France or Netherlands bloc exit would not be the same as any of the other 25 for obvious reasons (the 28 are not even equal when it comes to unanimous voting given the backroom armbending). Even kippers can be right, now and again. Just because Farage brushes he teeth, and many of the rest of us do - doesnt mean we are all in the same funbus.
Until you can get off this nonsense 4 year old argument the better for debate. There are lots of things I can think of that remaining would have been better for - but on balance, there are weighted negatives OR greater advantages to have global agility. That's no different to many of the discussions taking place in the Merkel or Rutte governments right now, does that make them kippers....
Think before posting, nil points for using kipper in the response....
DeepEnd said:
Boiling our trade power with the EU down to "we're bigger than 16" is kipper central nonsense. It's exactly the sort of simplistic nonsense that get riled up about.
It is an insult to the intelligence - at least of some.
And yet you post your own simplistic nonsense that is simply remain pedalling from 4yrs ago. To counter the Brexiterr (not seen you use that term for a while. Maybe you are progressing along the curve after all) rhetoric. It is an insult to the intelligence - at least of some.
Mathematically our economy is similar in size to France. Their productivity is better.
But how come we were larger net contributors than everyone apart from Germany?
There are many angles that can be explored, all of which are mathematically correct. The only maths that really matter are that we voted to leave. Time to carve our own path now.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff