Climate change - the POLITICAL debate (Vol 6)

[anonymous-user]

dickymint said:

MMGW and Covid = a perfect storm to sign off Agenda 21. We are well and truly stuffed and it's going to hurt!!

Thankfully it wont bother me that much as I live in a beautiful small town, holidays don't interest me/us in fact the last time we flew was about 8 years ago and that was to Scotland for a funeral! I work as and when i choose for 4 hours or so to cover my booze and fags. Wifey loves her job and is on very good money. No kids. Rarely drive, free bus pass......life is a bowl of cherries

[garagewidow]

Isn't this the best weather at the mo'

If this will be the result of having beaten climate change i'm all for it.

[dickymint]

garagewidow said:

Isn't this the best weather at the mo'

If this will be the result of having beaten climate change i'm all for it.

Skiing in the morning and in the afternoons - love it

[Nickgnome]

jshell said:

Like you I'm settled and happy. I have assets, cash and sizeable pension pots. Go me, huh? No, not really! I have a young daughter who is growing up into a world where employment will be scarce, control abundant and the wealth divide massive.

I'm so, so angry with those who beg for THEIR freedom. Just 3 weeks, just a few more weeks, roll up your sleeve, get a covipass, lose your job, it's 'climate' see... Bend over, spread a bit more.

With an attitude like yours you appear neither settled or happy.

Providing you have raised your daughter to be positive and optimistic then she will thrive and be fine.

I have a Daughter and Granddaughter and they are and will be fine also.

Employment will not be scarce. Your doom laden posts are of an ilk that have been in existence for centuries and proven to be nothing other than pessimistic nonsense.

By the way I think you will find that wind always blow somewhere as does the sun shine. Power networks like food supply are cross border.

[Brave Fart]

El stovey said:

<apologies for edit for brevity>
Boris seems to be into creating jobs and innovative solutions rather than just banning and taxing stuff, or like some of his other schemes they just won’t actually happen.
I don’t think voters will be particularly disadvantaged because Boris (or any other politician) is primarily motivated by getting re-elected, not the environment.

I hear you; one would be surprised if the government tried something massively unpopular. But that's my point; there's no real detail. Just vague references to "green growth" or something. With mutterings about "no more gas boilers" and "we should all think about going vegan".
So come on Boris, spell it out. Either reveal a detailed green industrial strategy, or tell us we can't have natural gas central heating. Or foreign holidays, or Aston Martins. Or can we?
You can't just say "78% reduction my friends, rejoice!" without spelling out HOW.
Otherwise it all just sounds like warm words to keep the lovely Carrie pacified.

[jshell]

Nickgnome said:

jshell said:

Like you I'm settled and happy. I have assets, cash and sizeable pension pots. Go me, huh? No, not really! I have a young daughter who is growing up into a world where employment will be scarce, control abundant and the wealth divide massive.

I'm so, so angry with those who beg for THEIR freedom. Just 3 weeks, just a few more weeks, roll up your sleeve, get a covipass, lose your job, it's 'climate' see... Bend over, spread a bit more.

With an attitude like yours you appear neither settled or happy.

Providing you have raised your daughter to be positive and optimistic then she will thrive and be fine.

I have a Daughter and Granddaughter and they are and will be fine also.

Employment will not be scarce. Your doom laden posts are of an ilk that have been in existence for centuries and proven to be nothing other than pessimistic nonsense.

By the way I think you will find that wind always blow somewhere as does the sun shine. Power networks like food supply are cross border.

You missed where I said: 'No, not really.'

On the rest, we shall see. So far things have played out exactly as some of us predicted. Doom laden? NO. Its all in plain site and even Klaus Schwab muses the negative effects on 'people' as technology/AI moves in this paper on the 4th Industrial Revolution:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-...

Not pretty reading.

All of the things I've said are not make-believe. They are stated aims. They are not hidden. The 186 page .ppt on the Energy Transition posted on the BBC website. The WEF Great Reset. Agenda 2030, that unobtainable fantasy. The Green New Deal, etc. All published, all being enacted.

It's almost as if there are influencers planning to save the planet, despite us.

Again, this is not insecure fantasy, these are published aims that are being enacted. Remember, CO2 is just a proxy for industry/commerce/business. Always was.

[anonymous-user]

Brave Fart said:

El stovey said:

<apologies for edit for brevity>
Boris seems to be into creating jobs and innovative solutions rather than just banning and taxing stuff, or like some of his other schemes they just won’t actually happen.
I don’t think voters will be particularly disadvantaged because Boris (or any other politician) is primarily motivated by getting re-elected, not the environment.

I hear you; one would be surprised if the government tried something massively unpopular. But that's my point; there's no real detail. Just vague references to "green growth" or something. With mutterings about "no more gas boilers" and "we should all think about going vegan".
So come on Boris, spell it out. Either reveal a detailed green industrial strategy, or tell us we can't have natural gas central heating. Or foreign holidays, or Aston Martins. Or can we?
You can't just say "78% reduction my friends, rejoice!" without spelling out HOW.
Otherwise it all just sounds like warm words to keep the lovely Carrie pacified.

It’s vague obviously because it’s all about ideas and classic Boris blue sky thinking initiatives which may or may not happen, the idea is all about growth and job creation but as usual it’s all headlines and slogans but very slim on detail.

It reminds me of the build build build initiatives back during covid where we’d build our way back with green initiatives and inspirational Roosevelt type new deal post war things like the jet zero which wasn’t going to happen any time soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/25/bori...

[jshell]

Boris literally said 'Jet Zero' this week...

[anonymous-user]

jshell said:

Boris literally said 'Jet Zero' this week...

It’s sort of become Boris’s zero emissions trans Atlantic concept but he makes it sound like aeroboffins can build some new electric long haul plane if he motivates them enough with a fine Churchillian speech.

We’ve already got efficient aircraft and there are some other fuels that could power them but there will be emissions somewhere along the line so carbon offsets are where it’s at now. Obviously everything an airline does is about saving fuel already and has been for years as it’s expensive.

There won’t be an electric passenger plane capable of carrying hundreds of passengers across the Atlantic for many years, decades even, the main issue is batteries and weight amongst many other problems.

So jet zero doesn’t really mean much tbh, a new aircraft like a B787 takes years to develop and test. The next generations being developed are just slightly different sizes and certainly nothing like Boris’s “jet zero” concept.

Boris even formed a jet zero council that have met once and nothing has happened. The focus appears to be on synthetic fuels now which may be reducing carbon emissions but will definitely be creating other (possibly worse) emissions.

It’s really just another project to make headlines at the moment like the tunnels and bridges to Ireland or his Boris airport etc

Any future genuinely green aircraft capable of long haul is likely to be made by Boeing and airbus and powered by one of the current power plant manufacturers, it won’t be some Kickstarter project encouraged by Boris and the jet zero council.

[Nickgnome]

jshell said:

You missed where I said: 'No, not really.'

On the rest, we shall see. So far things have played out exactly as some of us predicted. Doom laden? NO. Its all in plain site and even Klaus Schwab muses the negative effects on 'people' as technology/AI moves in this paper on the 4th Industrial Revolution:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-...

Not pretty reading.

All of the things I've said are not make-believe. They are stated aims. They are not hidden. The 186 page .ppt on the Energy Transition posted on the BBC website. The WEF Great Reset. Agenda 2030, that unobtainable fantasy. The Green New Deal, etc. All published, all being enacted.

It's almost as if there are influencers planning to save the planet, despite us.

Again, this is not insecure fantasy, these are published aims that are being enacted. Remember, CO2 is just a proxy for industry/commerce/business. Always was.

I see progress as positive you seem to consider as a negative.My Grandfather was born at the beginning of the last century lived into his mid 80s and when he was in his 70s said how marvellous it was to see the changes during his lifetime.

I've felt exactly the same all my life and now my Daughter enjoys the same attitude. Change should not be feared.

I happen to believe the consensus on the dangers of letting mankind impact the climate adversely. I do not consider it worth taking the risk that our sea levels rise to such an extent that much of the coastlines we recognise no longer exist with consequent displacement of many millions. Notwithstanding other climate impacts which will render other areas uninhabitable.

In the 1920s there were over 1M employed in the coal mining industry in the UK. Those jobs no longer exist and our population is now 67M but we have nearly full employment. We have 31M people in employment in the UK, excluding the Covid hiccup that is more than ever before.

What do you fear so much?

[Nickgnome]

dickymint said:

garagewidow said:

Isn't this the best weather at the mo'

If this will be the result of having beaten climate change i'm all for it.

Skiing in the morning and in the afternoons - love it

I've had that before when I lived in Albuquerque New Mexico.

[dickymint]

Nickgnome said:

dickymint said:

garagewidow said:

Isn't this the best weather at the mo'

If this will be the result of having beaten climate change i'm all for it.

Skiing in the morning and in the afternoons - love it

I've had that before when I lived in Albuquerque New Mexico.

Siera Nevada almost on our doorstep ............... shame we'll have to wait for battery jets now though

[jshell]

Nickgnome said:

jshell said:

You missed where I said: 'No, not really.'

On the rest, we shall see. So far things have played out exactly as some of us predicted. Doom laden? NO. Its all in plain site and even Klaus Schwab muses the negative effects on 'people' as technology/AI moves in this paper on the 4th Industrial Revolution:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-...

Not pretty reading.

All of the things I've said are not make-believe. They are stated aims. They are not hidden. The 186 page .ppt on the Energy Transition posted on the BBC website. The WEF Great Reset. Agenda 2030, that unobtainable fantasy. The Green New Deal, etc. All published, all being enacted.

It's almost as if there are influencers planning to save the planet, despite us.

Again, this is not insecure fantasy, these are published aims that are being enacted. Remember, CO2 is just a proxy for industry/commerce/business. Always was.

I see progress as positive you seem to consider as a negative.My Grandfather was born at the beginning of the last century lived into his mid 80s and when he was in his 70s said how marvellous it was to see the changes during his lifetime.

I've felt exactly the same all my life and now my Daughter enjoys the same attitude. Change should not be feared.

I happen to believe the consensus on the dangers of letting mankind impact the climate adversely. I do not consider it worth taking the risk that our sea levels rise to such an extent that much of the coastlines we recognise no longer exist with consequent displacement of many millions. Notwithstanding other climate impacts which will render other areas uninhabitable.

In the 1920s there were over 1M employed in the coal mining industry in the UK. Those jobs no longer exist and our population is now 67M but we have nearly full employment. We have 31M people in employment in the UK, excluding the Covid hiccup that is more than ever before.

What do you fear so much?

It's not progress, it's a retrograde step and will be awe-inspiringly costly in terms of cash and people. It has started already. My friend is a child psychiatrist who has started to reallocate kids with suicidal tendencies due to current restrictions and increasing numbers of suffering kids.

What am I afraid of? Meddlers and do-gooders who haven't a clue. That's what.

[jshell]

El stovey said:

jshell said:

Boris literally said 'Jet Zero' this week...

It’s sort of become Boris’s zero emissions trans Atlantic concept but he makes it sound like aeroboffins can build some new electric long haul plane if he motivates them enough with a fine Churchillian speech.

We’ve already got efficient aircraft and there are some other fuels that could power them but there will be emissions somewhere along the line so carbon offsets are where it’s at now. Obviously everything an airline does is about saving fuel already and has been for years as it’s expensive.

There won’t be an electric passenger plane capable of carrying hundreds of passengers across the Atlantic for many years, decades even, the main issue is batteries and weight amongst many other problems.

So jet zero doesn’t really mean much tbh, a new aircraft like a B787 takes years to develop and test. The next generations being developed are just slightly different sizes and certainly nothing like Boris’s “jet zero” concept.

Boris even formed a jet zero council that have met once and nothing has happened. The focus appears to be on synthetic fuels now which may be reducing carbon emissions but will definitely be creating other (possibly worse) emissions.

It’s really just another project to make headlines at the moment like the tunnels and bridges to Ireland or his Boris airport etc

Any future genuinely green aircraft capable of long haul is likely to be made by Boeing and airbus and powered by one of the current power plant manufacturers, it won’t be some Kickstarter project encouraged by Boris and the jet zero council.

We are in total agreement. Battery technology is certainly not there yet and after the previous worries on aircraft they'll have to be very sure that a stored energy device doesn't suddenly discharge, overheat or fail.

I think they'll go after business travellers and those who holiday multiple times per year. My mate in finance thinks the consumers will simply eat the price rises!

[Nickgnome]

jshell said:

Nickgnome said:

jshell said:

You missed where I said: 'No, not really.'

On the rest, we shall see. So far things have played out exactly as some of us predicted. Doom laden? NO. Its all in plain site and even Klaus Schwab muses the negative effects on 'people' as technology/AI moves in this paper on the 4th Industrial Revolution:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-...

Not pretty reading.

All of the things I've said are not make-believe. They are stated aims. They are not hidden. The 186 page .ppt on the Energy Transition posted on the BBC website. The WEF Great Reset. Agenda 2030, that unobtainable fantasy. The Green New Deal, etc. All published, all being enacted.

It's almost as if there are influencers planning to save the planet, despite us.

Again, this is not insecure fantasy, these are published aims that are being enacted. Remember, CO2 is just a proxy for industry/commerce/business. Always was.

I see progress as positive you seem to consider as a negative.My Grandfather was born at the beginning of the last century lived into his mid 80s and when he was in his 70s said how marvellous it was to see the changes during his lifetime.

I've felt exactly the same all my life and now my Daughter enjoys the same attitude. Change should not be feared.

I happen to believe the consensus on the dangers of letting mankind impact the climate adversely. I do not consider it worth taking the risk that our sea levels rise to such an extent that much of the coastlines we recognise no longer exist with consequent displacement of many millions. Notwithstanding other climate impacts which will render other areas uninhabitable.

In the 1920s there were over 1M employed in the coal mining industry in the UK. Those jobs no longer exist and our population is now 67M but we have nearly full employment. We have 31M people in employment in the UK, excluding the Covid hiccup that is more than ever before.

What do you fear so much?

It's not progress, it's a retrograde step and will be awe-inspiringly costly in terms of cash and people. It has started already. My friend is a child psychiatrist who has started to reallocate kids with suicidal tendencies due to current restrictions and increasing numbers of suffering kids.

What am I afraid of? Meddlers and do-gooders who haven't a clue. That's what.

What on earth is It that you consider is not progress?

A clue about what?

Please do not conflate Covid with Climate Change.

Isn't it strange that some young children seem to be able to manage during this time and others do not. Do you think that maybe their home environment may contribute to their distress?

How do you reallocate a child? They are not chattel.

[anonymous-user]

jshell said:

El stovey said:

jshell said:

Boris literally said 'Jet Zero' this week...

It’s sort of become Boris’s zero emissions trans Atlantic concept but he makes it sound like aeroboffins can build some new electric long haul plane if he motivates them enough with a fine Churchillian speech.

We’ve already got efficient aircraft and there are some other fuels that could power them but there will be emissions somewhere along the line so carbon offsets are where it’s at now. Obviously everything an airline does is about saving fuel already and has been for years as it’s expensive.

There won’t be an electric passenger plane capable of carrying hundreds of passengers across the Atlantic for many years, decades even, the main issue is batteries and weight amongst many other problems.

So jet zero doesn’t really mean much tbh, a new aircraft like a B787 takes years to develop and test. The next generations being developed are just slightly different sizes and certainly nothing like Boris’s “jet zero” concept.

Boris even formed a jet zero council that have met once and nothing has happened. The focus appears to be on synthetic fuels now which may be reducing carbon emissions but will definitely be creating other (possibly worse) emissions.

It’s really just another project to make headlines at the moment like the tunnels and bridges to Ireland or his Boris airport etc

Any future genuinely green aircraft capable of long haul is likely to be made by Boeing and airbus and powered by one of the current power plant manufacturers, it won’t be some Kickstarter project encouraged by Boris and the jet zero council.

We are in total agreement. Battery technology is certainly not there yet and after the previous worries on aircraft they'll have to be very sure that a stored energy device doesn't suddenly discharge, overheat or fail.

I think they'll go after business travellers and those who holiday multiple times per year. My mate in finance thinks the consumers will simply eat the price rises!

I agree with your mate also, there’s been massive overcapacity in the holiday and travel industry for years and margins are tiny and travel has been artificially cheap since the late 90s when easyJet and Ryanair transformed the U.K. market, it will depend on the country though as we’re already seeing reductions in longhaul travel in the Scandinavian market due to environmental concerns. Most Brits though love to travel and aren’t as bothered so far by any environmental factors.

All that can be done in aviation is taxing flights or carbon offsetting and maybe tinkering with fuels as there’s no jet zero on the way for a long time. Even the headline grabbing French ban on short haul where a 2.5 hour train journey exists, is massively over egged, there’s still exemptions for “connecting flights” and the routes actually affected are pretty minimal.

New technology on passenger aircraft takes years to develop, remember the B787 lithium ion batteries and the fires they had, that’s pretty much a standby source of power nothing like what might power a low emissions aircraft. The batteries suffered from thermal runaway and Boeing could only sort it out by increasing the spacing between the cells and putting the whole lot in a titanium box in case it caught fire. Luckily it worked. Imagine the issues on an aircraft with far more cells and all sorts of new technology.

[Kawasicki]

Because we haven’t been taking into account environmental damage, everything is too cheap, too easy. We need to have massive increases in the cost of food and clothing, that will reduce disposable income. Consumption needs to be a fraction of what it is now, so either huge price increases or rationing will be required.

[V88Dicky]

Nickgnome said:

What on earth is It that you consider is not progress?

In the 1970’s, we could (as a species) walk on the Moon, buy tickets to cross the Atlantic by sea in less than 4 days, fly to New York in less than 4 hours.....
None of which we could dream of doing now

But it ok, we’ve got the interweb, and free porn.

What exactly HAVE we achieved in the last 50 years? In my eyes, the square root of fk all.........

Edited by V88Dicky on Friday 23 April 18:20

[garagewidow]

Kawasicki said:

Because we haven’t been taking into account environmental damage, everything is too cheap, too easy. We need to have massive increases in the cost of food and clothing, that will reduce disposable income. Consumption needs to be a fraction of what it is now, so either huge price increases or rationing will be required.

This is what really needs to happen,but as already mentioned it will be at the detriment of jobs probably lots of them.

Cutting down on unnecessary purchases like new cars every 3 years and travel will all filter down in the economy,we've already had a taster this last year.

Lets see how Borises proposal about making electrical goods and such more easy to be repaired rather than chuck away and replace gets on,not very well i'll wager.

[Kawasicki]

garagewidow said:

Kawasicki said:

Because we haven’t been taking into account environmental damage, everything is too cheap, too easy. We need to have massive increases in the cost of food and clothing, that will reduce disposable income. Consumption needs to be a fraction of what it is now, so either huge price increases or rationing will be required.

This is what really needs to happen,but as already mentioned it will be at the detriment of jobs probably lots of them.

Cutting down on unnecessary purchases like new cars every 3 years and travel will all filter down in the economy,we've already had a taster this last year.

Lets see how Borises proposal about making electrical goods and such more easy to be repaired rather than chuck away and replace gets on,not very well i'll wager.

Throw the broken electrical goods away and don’t replace them. What doesn’t exist, can’t break down! Repairing stuff requires energy. Do you really need a washing machine?