Bristol and Diesel ban
Discussion
skyrover said:
Just quoting euro 6 is clouding the issue. There are 4 stages to it, a, b, c and now d (temp).
In short, a) was a voluntary level, b) was that emissions needed to conform to euro 6 level over the NEDC and gasoline cars were exempt from PN measurements. c) is now performed over the WLTC which, if know anything about the test cycles and how they look, is drastically more realistic than the previous NEDC. Also gasoline cars now have to meet the PN limit.
For d) the RDE supplement was added. However, they recognised that meeting the lab emissions on wltp and doing the same on the road with numerous uncontrollable variables isn’t exactly a realistic proposition so there is a conformity factor, I think it’s 2.1x the WLTC emissions limits. It’s call d) Temp because this factor will ratchet down over time.
Now I can tell you for certain that you can buy a “euro 6” diesel or petrols that will absolutely blow by the limits in real world testing (it’s part of my day job). We had 3 euro 6b cars on test all over Europe and all of them are drastically over the limits on NOx. The gasoline car, without a particulate filter and without the requirement to calibrate the engine for PN limits is about the filthiest thing I’ve tested. We had to change PEMS analyser filters on every test whereas the diesels could do at least 4 and I’m sure it’s responsible for blocking up our PN measuring kit.
But it’s no surprise, no requirement for PN on the petrol and both only need to meet the limits of the really quite poor NEDC test which barely works the engine at all and gives lots of chance for duff tech like stop-start to game the result. On a real world aggressive test the gasoline in particular is being worked so hard that it’s going into component protection zones on the engine map, which means rich combustion. It never reaches those areas on the lab tests.
The euro6d temp cars we’ve done are actually very good. Many well within the conformity factor on RDE tests, though not under the “euro 6” limits.
I’ve mentioned before on here I think that even the Heavy Duty saviour of CNG/LNG isn’t what it was made out to be as testing by TNO in the Netherlands showed 2018 model CNG trucks were worse for NOx and PN, even in the city, than 2013 Euro 6 trucks. (Heavy Duty is actually way ahead of light duty on the emissions front IMO, but they have the space for big filters, SCRs, adblue tanks etc).
Also not entirely convinced of remote sensing for this stuff...maybe SEMS will be better because it’s a direct measurement on the vehicle, with some smaller kit that would actually just be part of the vehicle emissions management system.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 21st November 12:55
Grahamdub said:
egor110 said:
How many of you are just swopping from diesel to petrol ?
We're keeping both of our diesels (V40 and Defender) and will buy a small cheap petrol for the commute. Speaking to other diesel owning locals, they will be doing the same, so instead of 6 month old diesels driving into the centre, there will be 10 year old petrol cars.Jim on the hill said:
Grahamdub said:
egor110 said:
How many of you are just swopping from diesel to petrol ?
We're keeping both of our diesels (V40 and Defender) and will buy a small cheap petrol for the commute. Speaking to other diesel owning locals, they will be doing the same, so instead of 6 month old diesels driving into the centre, there will be 10 year old petrol cars.
k all in the Bristol area, so pointless selling the Volvo until it's dead. Won't be long after that petrols will be moved from the centre too. Every new road layout (and there are a lot) brings more pedestrianisation. Nice for a walk in the sunshine, not so much for the businesses relocating away from the centre.Grahamdub said:
Apart from having to buy and run another car. Diesels will be worth fk all in the Bristol area, so pointless selling the Volvo until it's dead. Won't be long after that petrols will be moved from the centre too. Every new road layout (and there are a lot) brings more pedestrianisation. Nice for a walk in the sunshine, not so much for the businesses relocating away from the centre.
But outside of Bristol there's still demand for diesels and you could go on a local facebook group / gumtree and get a petrol car for a grand just in case in a few years time they ban petrol as well.k all in the Bristol area, so pointless selling the Volvo until it's dead. Won't be long after that petrols will be moved from the centre too. Every new road layout (and there are a lot) brings more pedestrianisation. Nice for a walk in the sunshine, not so much for the businesses relocating away from the centre.egor110 said:
But outside of Bristol there's still demand for diesels and you could go on a local facebook group / gumtree and get a petrol car for a grand just in case in a few years time they ban petrol as well.
Be interesting to see how many cities follow Bristol in a few years though. We will be buying a small, cheap petrol car for the commute in the short term. Ahhhhhh
That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
Previous said:
Ahhhhhh
That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
It's almost like they don't know what they're doing.....That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
Previous said:
Ahhhhhh
That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
You literally couldn’t make it up.That's why it only applies to private vehicles..
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/...
Who am I kidding, of course you could. What a bunch of disingenuous cretins.
karma mechanic said:
The proposal in Southampton is still on, but the measures don't involve charging.
I guess having a row of cruise ships in port would make a diesel ban look a bit pointless, especially since the Southampton proposal specifically excludes having shore side power for the ships.
Seems to me that Southampton City Council have gone for the "let's make any driving at all, anywhere in the City so bloody frustrating that no sane person will want to do it" approach. Witness the rise in the Itchen Bridge tolls, the endless roadworks from Junction 8 to Bitterne, the stupid roadworks on The Avenue, and so on and so forth.I guess having a row of cruise ships in port would make a diesel ban look a bit pointless, especially since the Southampton proposal specifically excludes having shore side power for the ships.
It's part of why no-one I know ever goes in to Southampton, preferring instead to visit Port Solent, Whiteley or Gunwharf.
Bristol council just bought fleet of diesel vans
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-5058...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-5058...
Brave Fart said:
Seems to me that Southampton City Council have gone for the "let's make any driving at all, anywhere in the City so bloody frustrating that no sane person will want to do it" approach. Witness the rise in the Itchen Bridge tolls, the endless roadworks from Junction 8 to Bitterne, the stupid roadworks on The Avenue, and so on and so forth.
It's part of why no-one I know ever goes in to Southampton, preferring instead to visit Port Solent, Whiteley or Gunwharf.
It just seems so pointlessly stupid: let's kill the local economy by making the city inaccessible. Seems to be happening everywhere now. If it's not ridiculous parking schemes, it's vehicle emissions. It's part of why no-one I know ever goes in to Southampton, preferring instead to visit Port Solent, Whiteley or Gunwharf.
What causes more damage: unemployment or diesel fumes???
Biker 1 said:
It just seems so pointlessly stupid: let's kill the local economy by making the city inaccessible. Seems to be happening everywhere now. If it's not ridiculous parking schemes, it's vehicle emissions.
What causes more damage: unemployment or diesel fumes???
Out of town shoppingWhat causes more damage: unemployment or diesel fumes???
Brave Fart said:
Seems to me that Southampton City Council have gone for the "let's make any driving at all, anywhere in the City so bloody frustrating that no sane person will want to do it" approach. Witness the rise in the Itchen Bridge tolls, the endless roadworks from Junction 8 to Bitterne, the stupid roadworks on The Avenue, and so on and so forth.
It's part of why no-one I know ever goes in to Southampton, preferring instead to visit Port Solent, Whiteley or Gunwharf.
Same for Bristol. I was over at Cribbs Causeway last weekend - absolutely rammed. Easy access, acres of free parking, all the shops and food outlets you'd expect, clean toilets, under cover. Why would you go into the city? It's part of why no-one I know ever goes in to Southampton, preferring instead to visit Port Solent, Whiteley or Gunwharf.
Coincidentally, I've just finished working in Bristol and started working at Whitely. The access to the business park could be better, to avoid the substantial queues at home time, but it certainly beats getting in and out of Bristol centre. Ironically, my journey to Whitely (90 miles) only takes 15-30 minutes longer than getting into Bristol (22 miles). Factoring in free parking vs. £15 a day, it's not materially more expensive either.
If cities drive away business and retail, what's left?
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