Tesla choose Germany over UK for its first European plant.

[anonymous-user]

Just a hunch but a remainer wouldn't have started the thread in the first place!

[chow pan toon]

That's kind of my point.

[Not-The-Messiah]

Does anyone have a idea how much say Panasonic have in these decisions?

As they are the ones who make Tesla batteries and run half of the Giggs factorys?

Tesla are in a strange position they are like a laptop manufacturer and it's only a matter of time until bigger companies bring out better cheaper laptops. People think that's ok because Tesla will just built the batteries but Tesla don't build batteries Panasonic do Tesla just put them in a little plastic boxes which anyone can do.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Thursday 14th November 21:48

[GT119]

pequod said:

Max_Torque said:

pequod said:

Personally, I don't see battery powered vehicles being the solution long term unless there is a leap in battery tech which solves the issues of weight and charge time plus the thorny question of recycling!

Well i guess it's lucky that "personally" your opinion is being completely ignored by people who actually know what they are talking about! ;-)



(hint, there is no battery recycling issue, and the mass of an EV is effectively already less than that of a ICE in terms of the effect it has on energy consumption)

Excellent, please explain why this isn't debunked by you, an expert.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2019/...

To me that article essentially says that EV batteries can readily be recycled, as long as we have ambition and a coordinated approach, and here’s how it’s done.

At the end it also makes reference to a company developing a 99% recyclable battery.

If anything it debunks your statement that it’s a thorny issue.

And for the love of God can we all please give up on the ridiculous idea that Hydrogen is going to have any relevance to the future of passenger vehicles.

[Not-The-Messiah]

GT119 said:

pequod said:

Max_Torque said:

pequod said:

Personally, I don't see battery powered vehicles being the solution long term unless there is a leap in battery tech which solves the issues of weight and charge time plus the thorny question of recycling!

Well i guess it's lucky that "personally" your opinion is being completely ignored by people who actually know what they are talking about! ;-)



(hint, there is no battery recycling issue, and the mass of an EV is effectively already less than that of a ICE in terms of the effect it has on energy consumption)

Excellent, please explain why this isn't debunked by you, an expert.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2019/...

To me that article essentially says that EV batteries can readily be recycled, as long as we have ambition and a coordinated approach, and here’s how it’s done.

At the end it also makes reference to a company developing a 99% recyclable battery.

If anything it debunks your statement that it’s a thorny issue.

And for the love of God can we all please give up on the ridiculous idea that Hydrogen is going to have any relevance to the future of passenger vehicles.

When someone says it's going to need to be ambition and need a coordinated approach just means it's going to cost a fortune and never be profitable and the money will need to filtered from somewhere else.
So basically that new battery that you thought was going to cost you 7k will now cost you 10k.

[RobDickinson]

Not-The-Messiah said:

Does anyone have a idea how much say Panasonic have in these decisions?

As they are the ones who make Tesla batteries and run half of the Giggs factorys?

Tesla are in a strange position they are like a laptop manufacturer and it's only a matter of time until bigger companies bring out better cheaper laptops. People think that's ok because Tesla will just built the batteries but Tesla don't build batteries Panasonic do Tesla just put them in a little plastic boxes which anyone can do.

None at all, tesla will make their own cells or buy in elsewhere like in china with CATL.

Its been " only a matter of time" for a decade and established auto are even further behind.

[ChocolateFrog]

Not-The-Messiah said:

Does anyone have a idea how much say Panasonic have in these decisions?

As they are the ones who make Tesla batteries and run half of the Giggs factorys?

Tesla are in a strange position they are like a laptop manufacturer and it's only a matter of time until bigger companies bring out better cheaper laptops. People think that's ok because Tesla will just built the batteries but Tesla don't build batteries Panasonic do Tesla just put them in a little plastic boxes which anyone can do.

Edited by Not-The-Messiah on Thursday 14th November 21:48

I was under the impression that Panasonic was about to be booted out of the Gigafactory partnership.

[ChocolateFrog]

Did anyone genuinely believe that the European Gigafactiry was going to come here? Regardless of Brexit.

Brexit just seems like a readily available excuse.

I wonder if when the Japanese manufacturers pull out of European plants they'll blame brexit for that too.

[anonymous-user]

Remember it wasn't long ago Daimler owned some of Tesla, actually saved it from extinction. I;m sure one of the German players will end up buying them.

[rpguk]

Nothing to do with Brexit and we didn't want it anyway

[Swervin_Mervin]

fblm said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

From a pure logistics POV I'd have thought Germany would make sense, or France if they had been in the running...

Given the flexibility Tesla demand out of their workforce in the US, I really doubt the French were ever in the running. There's also the small matter of French cars being a joke in the US compared to German.

I meant from a purely geographical POV. The French certainly weren't in the running. Just 3 countries

[S1KRR]

98elise said:

5000 or 10000, it's still huge.

Add to that the drive train is 10x more expensive to produce (according to BMW)

Then add the massive infrastructure needed.

All relative though. The crack off pressure on a modern diesel injector is something daft like 300 bar (4,500psi) so we're not dealing outside the realms of do-able.

Drivetrain surely isn't that much more. It's just a way of powering another electric motor. Fundamentally, you could "hydrogen-ise" a BMW i3. Sounds like BMW are anti the development costs.

Infrastructure is the key. But then we've seen 20 years ago, ZERO electricity points for cars. So if you build it...

ChocolateFrog said:

Did anyone genuinely believe that the European Gigafactiry was going to come here? Regardless of Brexit.

Brexit just seems like a readily available excuse.

I wonder if when the Japanese manufacturers pull out of European plants they'll blame brexit for that too.

Yup

The EU-Japan FTA will mean that thousands of EU workers at Japanese plants will lose their jobs. As Toyota et al will have no requirement to build inside the bloc.


But hey, the EU looks out for its citizens right?


I'm sure Deepend knew this and wouldn't just try and spin something into anti Brexit without first checking the facts

Edited by S1KRR on Thursday 14th November 22:50

[RobDickinson]

ChocolateFrog said:

I was under the impression that Panasonic was about to be booted out of the Gigafactory partnership.

Not booted but sidelined, they'll do 35gwh at gf1

[RobDickinson]

Thesprucegoose said:

Remember it wasn't long ago Daimler owned some of Tesla, actually saved it from extinction. I;m sure one of the German players will end up buying them.

I bet they regret that now, tesla have overtaken them in market worth...

[GoodCompany]

rpguk said:

Nothing to do with Brexit and we didn't want it anyway

the goalposts are flying all over the place.

Funny how the UK is going to be supposedly stronger after Brexit (after an indefinable "transition period").

It's looking more like the lights have come on at the end of the disco, brexiteers are so deep in their beer that they didn't notice that all of the stunners have left, all their supermodel friends decided to divert their taxis, and the quitters are left hugging themselves to feel better or clinging on to the local bicycle who is going to be passed out soon.

[anonymous-user]

GoodCompany said:

rpguk said:

Nothing to do with Brexit and we didn't want it anyway

the goalposts are flying all over the place.

Funny how the UK is going to be supposedly stronger after Brexit (after an indefinable "transition period").

It's looking more like the lights have come on at the end of the disco, brexiteers are so deep in their beer that they didn't notice that all of the stunners have left, all their supermodel friends decided to divert their taxis, and the quitters are left hugging themselves to feel better or clinging on to the local bicycle who is going to be passed out soon.

Before the remain back slapping turns into a circle jerk it's perhaps worth putting this all in perspective. Since 2016 UK net FDI has fallen back to the level it was at in 2014 (manufacturing and svcs) and remains comfortably above pre-GFC levels. FDI globally however, since 2016, has fallen 60% back to 2004 levels. So sure Brexit uncertainty is not good, but neither has it been, so far, particularly bad.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 15th November 00:33

[anonymous-user]

The alleged poor conditions for workers, as linked to by a poster earlier, is worrying and something I'd not welcome. If the German workers get better terms then I can only imagine that would cause unrest with the American workers.
I worry that Tesla might not be dynamic enough, having everything in-house and not really collaborating with others to share costs and to build in flexibility that allows for swift change. While they have been 'the one' that has allowed them to have their own charging points, for example, but the market is being invaded now and the others are more the sharing type. I quite like the idea of somehow standardising the battery and charging technology amongst collaborating companies as I feel that will offer the buyers the most confidence in the future of those manufacturers.
Then I see reports of Musk's encounters with the British diver, which seemed so unnecessary.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/tesla-germany...

[RobDickinson]

Tesla already have German workers in a separate German entity working well with the whole organisation.

BTW tesla invented their own high power dc port because back then there wasn't one.

Notice they've put ccs ports on their new cars...

[RedWhiteMonkey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Worker's rights are woeful in the USA, just look at the terrible holiday entitlement situation for example. Germany and Europe has strong worker's rights, German workers will automatically have better terms than their American colleagues. This is nothing new and can be see with many multi-nationals.

[anonymous-user]

RobDickinson said:

Tesla already have German workers in a separate German entity working well with the whole organisation.

BTW tesla invented their own high power dc port because back then there wasn't one.

Notice they've put ccs ports on their new cars...

On completely different terms, interesting to see the unrest it causes between the plants, much like it doesn’t in the global manufacturing business I work in.

Re Tesla / Daimler market cap, remind me again how much profit Tesla have ever made?

It’ll all go bang, mass manufacturers are catching up and using their established infrastructure to industrialise and overtake Tesla, let’s be honest they offer a mediocre product at a premium price.

E-golf will take model 3 orders (what an awful car), Taycan will take P-x orders, the one I tested was absolute garbage, S class money and focus specification bar that ungainly screen.

Batteries won’t be the future anyway, so it’s all a moot point.