Voting as a muslim
Discussion
JuanCarlosFandango said:
What do you base that assertion on?
Oswald Moseley was very keen on a united Europe, and supported staying in in 1975. I am not keen on posting links to the sites that discuss this as I don't wish to promote them, but they're readily available on Google if anyone is interested.
Mosley wasn’t advocating an EU set up, he wanted a full on fascist dictatorship. You’re stretching things way too far now. Oswald Moseley was very keen on a united Europe, and supported staying in in 1975. I am not keen on posting links to the sites that discuss this as I don't wish to promote them, but they're readily available on Google if anyone is interested.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Not much help to the OP though. How about the Greens?
++You can't be serious? I have a hard time sorting out which recycling bit goes in which bin. Apparently tea bags go in the food bin, but the string bit cannot. Is that right? What about having to clean plastic containers and checking their recycling logo and seperating the lid if it's not recyclable.
s1962a said:
Not sure if you read some points I made, but I want to vote for a party for the issues the really matter in this country. For me thats economic policy and other matters, but anti religious sentiments from party members should not be part of it.
And I am a traditional Conservative voter, who's feeling a bit illusioned with the party for reasons i mentioned previously
There's a simple answer to that which is to vote for the party that is closest to your outlook. The same choice we all face every election. I don't think I have ever met anyone who likes every aspect of any political party. If there really are none you could vote for then stand yourself.And I am a traditional Conservative voter, who's feeling a bit illusioned with the party for reasons i mentioned previously
Though it seems you are actually just having a lazy moan that Brexit is racist because you don't like it. In which case Lib Dems.
s1962a said:
No agenda here than talking openly with you all on PH, my issues with the Conservative party as I see it. I think i've said it many times now that economically and otherwise the tories make a lot of sense for me, and Labour would no doubt ruin the economy with it's full on mental socialist policy. So I would ask you, why aren't the tories doing more to get the vote of people they might be marginalising with comments from some of their members.
What comments from what members? anonymous said:
[redacted]
Maybe you're not following events in the party then. Heres a sample.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/12/r...
Keoparakolo said:
Penelope Stopit said:
You can't be serious
There will very likely be many racists that voted remain due to their fear of leaving the EU costing them money
Money often comes first
Leaving the EU is going to cost people money? Really? Oh dear, that’s not what was promised. There will very likely be many racists that voted remain due to their fear of leaving the EU costing them money
Money often comes first
Going to guess that you're suggesting I think leaving the EU is going to cost people money
Like everyone else, I have no idea what the future holds for the UK after it leaves the EU
There will very likely be many racists that voted remain due to their fear of leaving the EU costing them money
Keoparakolo said:
Hardly my slant. They propose 3 things:
1. Add “Commonweath” to “All other passports” as I’ve already stated
2. Have a look at ways of reducing the waiting times getting through passport control - no solutions, or ideas, just “Examine ways to reduce”
3. Maybe for a few select individuals let them get into a specialist scheme
Hardly groundbreaking. It’s also hardly a resounding advert for non-racism, when they are pretty much interested in Australia / Canada / India and 5 G20 countries, South Africa is one of the others, but can’t work out who the other is. There are literally dozens of other Commonwealth countries, but they don’t seem to register in the letter.
I'll ask you again, is that a letter written and signed by racists? 1. Add “Commonweath” to “All other passports” as I’ve already stated
2. Have a look at ways of reducing the waiting times getting through passport control - no solutions, or ideas, just “Examine ways to reduce”
3. Maybe for a few select individuals let them get into a specialist scheme
Hardly groundbreaking. It’s also hardly a resounding advert for non-racism, when they are pretty much interested in Australia / Canada / India and 5 G20 countries, South Africa is one of the others, but can’t work out who the other is. There are literally dozens of other Commonwealth countries, but they don’t seem to register in the letter.
Downplay it all you like. If they're just after the select few nations then they could have very easily not written the letter and pursued those nations individually. You say oh just South Africa and India, not quite the countries to want to cosy up to if you happen to be a racist.
All nations of the Commonwealth are mentioned by extension of being part of the Commonwealth, the letter doesn't have to state the bloody obvious and name each and every one of them.
What's the select individuals bulls
t you are on about? Jeees, you are talking some s
t. Teddy Lop said:
Alpinestars said:
Teddy Lop said:
my point was not that there arent some great advantages and good arguements to be made in favour of being part of a European group and evan the eu!
Free movement of people - makes it easier to travel and work in the EU. Freedom of establishment of business, treaty benefits like no withholding tax on interest and dividend payments - very important for international businesses.
Some tax harmonisation, which results in preventing abusive tax structures.
Tariff free trade with a huge trading block.
Consumer protection rights.
Etc etc.
But anyway this isn't eu vs rule Britannia, there's already a few of those i gather...
king point being that the EU has very little impact on each member state's tax rules. What do you want? More EU or less EU? Make your mind up.s1962a said:
Maybe you're not following events in the party then. Heres a sample.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/12/r...
All who were still members were suspended. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/12/r...
25 councillors out of how many councillors, MPs, party members? Where are there signs of the party supporting their actions? You have to understand that there will always be racists and some will want to be in politics. It'll never be eradicated totally but that is far, far from an indication that this Islamophobia is endemic or a wholly Tory thing.
To answer the OP's query of why the Tories aren't doing more to get Muslims on side, I think it's cynical and patronising to be going for 'the Muslim vote'. I think it's been said before on this thread that there's no need to target people based on anything other than general values and beliefs that transcend religion and ethnicity. The time of identity politics is over for most people.
OP, there's a few things you've said that suggests your mindset might be closer than you think to the racists that judge whole groups because of the actions of a few.
OP, there's a few things you've said that suggests your mindset might be closer than you think to the racists that judge whole groups because of the actions of a few.
WinkleHoff said:
I'd be interested to know what a political party should do to "go after the Muslim vote". The answer to that might be quite informative.
In the case of the Conservatives it isn't a matter of actively pandering to them. It's simply a case of not making them feel unwelcome or threatened. Not that big a deal really. Not exactly patronising either. As a party we need to root out the reactionary, intolerant scum and be seen to be doing so. So far near total fail.
I'd like to add a put forward my hypothesis with regard to alleged Islamaphobia in the Conservative party (and at the same time anti-Semitism in the Labour party) as there may be some relevance to the discussion.
If you take anti-Semitism first, there are genuine anti-semites in this country - but history would suggest they are spread across the political spectrum; left to right. I would suggest the upsurge in anti-Semitism on the left has increased due to the perceived injustices inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the Isreali government.
Putting aside for a moment the exact right/wrongs of that conflict, there is an imbalance in power between the two sides. And as the Isreali government use their power to protect their people from terrorism, they have inflicted some terrible consequences, despite their best efforts, upon many innocent Palestinian people.
But this is a nuanced argument where both sides feel aggrieved, but crucially, it involves the Isreali government, *not* all Jewish people. But it is far simpler to ignore the details and simplify the problem to see Jewish people as being responsible for the injustices against the Palestinians. For evidence of this, just look how Richard Burgon on the Labour front bench clearly referred to Zionism in a pejorative way.
So the hard-of-thinking on the left get angry at the injustices but then incorrectly attribute Jewish people as being responsible. Hence the rise in hatred against Jews.
And then the mirror effect is happening with Islamaphobia in Conservatives. Older people tend to vote and identify as Conservative. And some of those are also hard-of-thinking. So they see Al-Qaeda and ISIS committing terrible acts in pursuit of their own twisted agenda, and they see these terrorists claiming to be muslim and followers of Islam. So in their ignorance, they incorrectly conflate the aims of these terrorists with muslims, and so we see a rise in Islamaphobia among the older population and as such among the Conservative party.
If you take anti-Semitism first, there are genuine anti-semites in this country - but history would suggest they are spread across the political spectrum; left to right. I would suggest the upsurge in anti-Semitism on the left has increased due to the perceived injustices inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the Isreali government.
Putting aside for a moment the exact right/wrongs of that conflict, there is an imbalance in power between the two sides. And as the Isreali government use their power to protect their people from terrorism, they have inflicted some terrible consequences, despite their best efforts, upon many innocent Palestinian people.
But this is a nuanced argument where both sides feel aggrieved, but crucially, it involves the Isreali government, *not* all Jewish people. But it is far simpler to ignore the details and simplify the problem to see Jewish people as being responsible for the injustices against the Palestinians. For evidence of this, just look how Richard Burgon on the Labour front bench clearly referred to Zionism in a pejorative way.
So the hard-of-thinking on the left get angry at the injustices but then incorrectly attribute Jewish people as being responsible. Hence the rise in hatred against Jews.
And then the mirror effect is happening with Islamaphobia in Conservatives. Older people tend to vote and identify as Conservative. And some of those are also hard-of-thinking. So they see Al-Qaeda and ISIS committing terrible acts in pursuit of their own twisted agenda, and they see these terrorists claiming to be muslim and followers of Islam. So in their ignorance, they incorrectly conflate the aims of these terrorists with muslims, and so we see a rise in Islamaphobia among the older population and as such among the Conservative party.
Trolling?
The Labour Party has been around longer than these old people have existed! Someone had to vote Labour all these years, it's daft to think none of them are still alive as old people and still voting for Labour. It's also pretty judgmental to suggest old people are thick too.
The Labour Party has been around longer than these old people have existed! Someone had to vote Labour all these years, it's daft to think none of them are still alive as old people and still voting for Labour. It's also pretty judgmental to suggest old people are thick too.
s1962a said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Not much help to the OP though. How about the Greens?
++You can't be serious? I have a hard time sorting out which recycling bit goes in which bin. Apparently tea bags go in the food bin, but the string bit cannot. Is that right? What about having to clean plastic containers and checking their recycling logo and seperating the lid if it's not recyclable.
Anyway, you are certainly not alone in being in a quandary about who you should vote for. I've considered voting Lib Dem (after all, that lying POS Nick Clegg has f
ked off to facebook), but that's just a vote for Corbyn. I can't vote for him because, apart from being an IRA supporting communist, he would stick the already fragile British economy into a blender, shut down my daughters' school, and tax me on any profit I might make on the sale of my sole residence. Well fk him. I think Old Labour are the party of the unemployed now. They've always been anti-elitist, now they're just anti-capitalist. Which is ironic as they're going to running up the biggest credit card bill the world's ever seen.I'm a remainer so couldn't vote for the joke that is the Brexit Party. I'm not Satan so couldn't vote for UKIP. Do they really want to rejuvenate the British coal industry?! It's quite clearly a party for evil people, who feel the other parties don't represent just how much they despise humanity and their planet.
I voted Green in 2017 (yes, I know, ROFL etc.) in protest at May's bulls
t election to win more seats (seems many others did the same), I'm not sure I'd actually want them to be running the country. I'm not sure they would either. They just might screw the economy over more than Old Labour. Which is quite an achievement. Anyway, another wasted vote.There's no point voting independent is there? Again, just a vote for Corbyn.
Which leaves the Tories. Boris Johnson, hmmm. Words can't convey what the Boris potato doll would look like if it was announced that Voodoo actually worked. I'd sooner eat my own liver than vote for that narcissistic f
kwad. If I have to see another photo of him with his sleeves rolled up and his stupid fking tie tucked into his shirt. In a fking pastry factory. I've got news for you Boris (should have stayed there by the way, you were mildly amusing in a unintentional way), nobody works in pastry factories. Why don't you do the rounds of some service industry offices? Is it because you can't wear a fking hard hat? What an epically proportioned gynaesaur.So yeah, you're not alone. Religion doesn't enter into it. Unless you're Jewish, that makes things easier.
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