Voting as a muslim

[s1962a]

A Winner Is You said:

The official definition is "a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness" which to me could easily be used to cover any aspect of Islam.

The kind of stuff i'm referring to is violence toward people because they are muslim (outwardly or perceived to be). " go home" is a pretty bad one too. and racist abuse at people either online or on the streets/public transport is bad too. Does any of that seem ok to you?

[pequod]

poo at Paul's said:

I think there are huge swathes of the population in UK that have issues with certain aspects of certain faiths, and the Muslim one included. IMO, it is not the race, colour or anything else related to a typical practicioner, it is the particular practice itself that upsets people. If they makes them anti Muslim, anti Catholic etc, so be it.

We know examples of what I mean, anyone who is tolerant of LGBT rights, equal rights and opportunities based on gender etc, (ie the vast majority of the UK i would submit) would have issues with some aspects of Islam's stance on gays and women. If that makes everyone anti muslim, so be it. I cannot see it changing.

I am not a fan of the LGBT+ crowd parading down the street and shoving their message into the national press and expecting the majority to go along with this. Does that make me a follower of Islam?

[A Winner Is You]

s1962a said:

A Winner Is You said:

The official definition is "a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness" which to me could easily be used to cover any aspect of Islam.

The kind of stuff i'm referring to is violence toward people because they are muslim (outwardly or perceived to be). " go home" is a pretty bad one too. and racist abuse at people either online or on the streets/public transport is bad too. Does any of that seem ok to you?

Of course that isn't ok. When did I say it was?

[JuanCarlosFandango]

s1962a said:

poo at Paul's said:

I think there are huge swathes of the population in UK that have issues with certain aspects of certain faiths, and the Muslim one included. IMO, it is not the race, colour or anything else related to a typical practicioner, it is the particular practice itself that upsets people. If they makes them anti Muslim, anti Catholic etc, so be it.

We know examples of what I mean, anyone who is tolerant of LGBT rights, equal rights and opportunities based on gender etc, (ie the vast majority of the UK i would submit) would have issues with some aspects of Islam's stance on gays and women. If that makes everyone anti muslim, so be it. I cannot see it changing.

Do you think it has a place in politics though? For example, if someone with far right view joins UKIP, that kind of makes sense right? But those views in the Tory or Labour party? Not so much there.

Do you see any demarcation between criticising ideology and practices on the one hand and attacking people on the other?

Christianity is regularly torn to shreds in the media and on PH. Sky fairies and jokes about paedophile priests are common currency, and I have heard people say that bringing up children to believe in God is tantamount to child abuse. I don't in any way feel that is an attack on me, even if it shows complete contempt for my beliefs. I would hope the people who say that, even if they think I am an absolute idiot, would not take that as a justification for violence or abuse towards me. They can laugh at churches and build bonfires out of bibles for all I care. If they choose to abuse, threaten or use violence then it is a completely different matter.

It is quite a clear line for me.

Now I can see that that position is easier for a white Christian in a white Christian country to take, and that there will surely be some people who use criticism of religion as a cover for some other prejudices. But where does that leave us? Should Islam or other minority religions be shielded from all criticism in case there is a racist sub/joint motive? Should any cry of racism immediately silence all further discussion until a thorough independent investigation has ruled out racism?

Or should the same standards apply to all regardless of their beliefs? As is pretty much the definition of equality.

[ChevyChase77]

s1962a said:

ChevyChase77 said:

I never suggested all Muslims do this.

What I'm asking is, what constitutes being anti-Muslim? Does criticising aspects of Islam make you anti-Muslim? I'd criticise any religion that preaches things that have no place in today's society.

Which religion(s) would you criticise that fit that criteria?

plenty of abuse / threats / violence against muslims out there (being singled out for being muslim). Look it up.

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

[Troubleatmill]

ChevyChase77 said:

s1962a said:

ChevyChase77 said:

I never suggested all Muslims do this.

What I'm asking is, what constitutes being anti-Muslim? Does criticising aspects of Islam make you anti-Muslim? I'd criticise any religion that preaches things that have no place in today's society.

Which religion(s) would you criticise that fit that criteria?

plenty of abuse / threats / violence against muslims out there (being singled out for being muslim). Look it up.

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

And then there are real whackos......

https://local12.com/news/local/ohio-house-passes-b...

[Digga]

ChevyChase77 said:

s1962a said:

ChevyChase77 said:

I never suggested all Muslims do this.

What I'm asking is, what constitutes being anti-Muslim? Does criticising aspects of Islam make you anti-Muslim? I'd criticise any religion that preaches things that have no place in today's society.

Which religion(s) would you criticise that fit that criteria?

plenty of abuse / threats / violence against muslims out there (being singled out for being muslim). Look it up.

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Yes, there are some fringes of Christianity that have strong parallels to less progressive bits of Islam, WRT sexual and gender equality. Bits of the Brethren, for example, are controlling, arguably (to some) to the point of abuse.

[RTB]

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

[Keoparakolo]

Why is the suggestion now that all people are doing is questioning Islam? That clearly doesn’t relate to the OP’s experience. Or is this the style of debate? To pretend one thing is the issue when it clearly isn’t.

[Digga]

Keoparakolo said:

Why is the suggestion now that all people are doing is questioning Islam? That clearly doesn’t relate to the OP’s experience. Or is this the style of debate? To pretend one thing is the issue when it clearly isn’t.

reductively, the OP's post relates to bias or prejudice against either or both;

1. religion
2. race

It is one of the issues, but not the only one. I think the discussion about aspects of (non-progressive) Islam being singled out, when other religions are actually just as closed to modern values but get not criticism is interesting.

[ChevyChase77]

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

[Mothersruin]

ChevyChase77 said:

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

Agreed - religion is an idea - ideas are open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule - ideas that need to be enforced by violence and special exemptions/laws probably aren't the best of ideas in the first place.

[Gary C]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Digga said:

The problem is, whether you are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Seventh Day Adventist or even Rastafarian, voting for any other party than the Tories (this time around) promises nothing but utter chaos. .

a PM who is not a fit and proper person to be PM of Great Britain & N. Ireland.

Snap for Labour

[s1962a]

Mothersruin said:

ChevyChase77 said:

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

Agreed - religion is an idea - ideas are open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule - ideas that need to be enforced by violence and special exemptions/laws probably aren't the best of ideas in the first place.

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

[Mothersruin]

s1962a said:

Mothersruin said:

ChevyChase77 said:

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

Agreed - religion is an idea - ideas are open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule - ideas that need to be enforced by violence and special exemptions/laws probably aren't the best of ideas in the first place.

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

I think it's to do with elements conflating criticism of religion with 'simple' racism - the two are very different.

[Digga]

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Which party do you think is best placed to combat religious or racial bigotry, given its front bench constituents and overall ability to organise itself?

[Gary C]

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

[TTwiggy]

Mothersruin said:

I think it's to do with elements conflating criticism of religion with 'simple' racism - the two are very different.

But other elements are happy to conflate religion with race when it suits them.

Regardless, surely the issue is lumping people together based on one trait and then hating all of them for that trait? That's racism 101, however one attempts to argue the semantics of it.

[s1962a]

Gary C said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

Not sure if you actually read my original opening post, or whether you followed this thread, but i made it quite clear that the tories speak my language - I don't want a socialist labour government, and i'd like brexit to be over with. But the finger pointing in the tory ranks, and their supposed alliances or turning a blind eye to racists within their party doesn't help. Couple that with the increase in racist attacks since Brexit, anti semitism within Labour (i had no idea how bad this was as it doesn't affect me directly) - it makes for a pretty toxic culture in some of the parties.

Not voting is not an option for me.

[Gary C]

s1962a said:

Not voting is not an option for me.

its an option for anyone, you may choose not to take it, but its an option.