Voting as a muslim

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anonymous said:

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I'm here I voted remain and I live in a predominantly labour london council.

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Rare said:

But does that constitute anti Muslim ?

An anti Muslim agenda suggests that policies are in place and / or being considered that would be discriminatory and negative towards Muslims.

I don’t see that.

There may well be a few members who don’t like Muslims but that is hardly an anti Muslim agenda by the entire party.

Thats like saying labour doesn't have a problem with anti semitism - it does, even though the party's agenda is not to be racist against Jews.

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anonymous said:

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Not a widespread problem, but a problem enough for it to be noticed by those the abuse is directed at.

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anonymous said:

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I am fine with all that, and I agree with you. So if a party has members that outwardly try to offend or have hostility toward you then how do you tackle that? Maybe get to the bottom of it and get it out of politics, as it has no place there.

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ChevyChase77 said:

s1962a said:

Rare said:

But does that constitute anti Muslim ?

An anti Muslim agenda suggests that policies are in place and / or being considered that would be discriminatory and negative towards Muslims.

I don’t see that.

There may well be a few members who don’t like Muslims but that is hardly an anti Muslim agenda by the entire party.

Thats like saying labour doesn't have a problem with anti semitism - it does, even though the party's agenda is not to be racist against Jews.

Can having an issue with FGM or Mosques teaching that homosexuality is wrong be classed as anti-Muslim? Or is it just condemning things that have no place in today's society?

I believe FGM is wrong, and have no problem with homo sexuality.

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ash73 said:

My solution would be ban all religion in the UK, then there would be no discrimination. Everyone is just British.

Perfect!

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ChevyChase77 said:

I never suggested all Muslims do this.

What I'm asking is, what constitutes being anti-Muslim? Does criticising aspects of Islam make you anti-Muslim? I'd criticise any religion that preaches things that have no place in today's society.

Which religion(s) would you criticise that fit that criteria?

plenty of abuse / threats / violence against muslims out there (being singled out for being muslim). Look it up.

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poo at Paul's said:

I think there are huge swathes of the population in UK that have issues with certain aspects of certain faiths, and the Muslim one included. IMO, it is not the race, colour or anything else related to a typical practicioner, it is the particular practice itself that upsets people. If they makes them anti Muslim, anti Catholic etc, so be it.

We know examples of what I mean, anyone who is tolerant of LGBT rights, equal rights and opportunities based on gender etc, (ie the vast majority of the UK i would submit) would have issues with some aspects of Islam's stance on gays and women. If that makes everyone anti muslim, so be it. I cannot see it changing.

Do you think it has a place in politics though? For example, if someone with far right view joins UKIP, that kind of makes sense right? But those views in the Tory or Labour party? Not so much there.

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A Winner Is You said:

The official definition is "a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness" which to me could easily be used to cover any aspect of Islam.

The kind of stuff i'm referring to is violence toward people because they are muslim (outwardly or perceived to be). " go home" is a pretty bad one too. and racist abuse at people either online or on the streets/public transport is bad too. Does any of that seem ok to you?

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Mothersruin said:

ChevyChase77 said:

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

Agreed - religion is an idea - ideas are open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule - ideas that need to be enforced by violence and special exemptions/laws probably aren't the best of ideas in the first place.

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

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Gary C said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

Not sure if you actually read my original opening post, or whether you followed this thread, but i made it quite clear that the tories speak my language - I don't want a socialist labour government, and i'd like brexit to be over with. But the finger pointing in the tory ranks, and their supposed alliances or turning a blind eye to racists within their party doesn't help. Couple that with the increase in racist attacks since Brexit, anti semitism within Labour (i had no idea how bad this was as it doesn't affect me directly) - it makes for a pretty toxic culture in some of the parties.

Not voting is not an option for me.

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Troubleatmill said:

s1962a said:

Gary C said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

Not sure if you actually read my original opening post, or whether you followed this thread, but i made it quite clear that the tories speak my language - I don't want a socialist labour government, and i'd like brexit to be over with. But the finger pointing in the tory ranks, and their supposed alliances or turning a blind eye to racists within their party doesn't help. Couple that with the increase in racist attacks since Brexit, anti semitism within Labour (i had no idea how bad this was as it doesn't affect me directly) - it makes for a pretty toxic culture in some of the parties.

Not voting is not an option for me.

Doesn't matter which party you vote for - There will always be a minority of Candidates/ Members of that party that are nasty pieces of work. Look at the latest Libdem candidate who has a distaste for Jews.

Just vote for the party you think will run the country well.

In my opinion that would be the Tories, given the labour manifesto. If the tories stick to their promises to actively root out racist elements within their ranks then thats good enough for me.

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Not-The-Messiah said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

If you use your argument against the conservatives, and do the same with Islam it will not go well.

Your argument is that because a few Tory members are possibly abusive to Muslims that say a lot about the conservatives as a hole.

So what does it say about Islam with the stuff some members of that group gets up to?

The fact is the is no official stance within the conservatives that is anti Muslim nothing written down in a manifesto and no key figures saying it.
Where as if Islam was a political party it would be band as a hate group. It as a written manifesto that incites violence and hatred to others and some key figures calling for such things.

Islamic extremism is abhorrent and I would gladly shop anyone i knew with any extremist views - I condemn it wholeheartedly.

What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

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Troubleatmill said:

s1962a said:

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What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

It is just me finding that an odd statement???
Either you condemn racists or not.

Their political affiliation is irrelevant.

Why not categorise by bald people?
Or left handed?
Or those with android phones?

Thats a good point. I am not looking to vote for any far right parties who have racist views as part of their manifesto's. I'm specifically referring to the racist elements within the Tory party - and also the anti semitism within Labour which is shocking as well.

Would you condemn it? You can condemn all of racism if you prefer, but you haven't so far.

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Digga said:

s1962a said:

In my opinion that would be the Tories, given the labour manifesto. If the tories stick to their promises to actively root out racist elements within their ranks then thats good enough for me.

I agree. They have key ministers from a variety of religious/racial backgrounds who are very much part of the Tory establishment and very much unlikely to tolerate abuse. The cabinet feels to me to be pretty 'representative' of contemporary Britishness.

Racism has no place here. Full stop.

Religious hatred and religious extremism has no place here. As others have said similar, but certainly I am not religious personally but can understand and sympathise with those who are - I do 'get' it - and would defend an individuals rights to practice religion (or atheism for that matter) without interference from others.

Yes exactly. i want my country to propser, and I do believe the tories are in the best place to do that. So weed out this bullst racism as much as possible.

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Not-The-Messiah said:

So now the leaders of the conservative party as also condemned it, is that problem solved?

The fact they've suspended the racists is a really good sign. For me, an independent inquiry into it (which could happen after the election and brexit) would be fine for me but i know Boris won't do that as it might alienate some of the core Brexit support he has who share those views. I get it, it's quite logical, but I dont agree with it.

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Not-The-Messiah said:

Of course I would condemn racists, I will say though I don't class people who criticise a religions their traditions and practices racist though. Perhaps intolerant but not racist.

Thanks,I didn't want this to go unnoticed.

I agree with you. I have no problem with people criticising religious beliefs or practices, as should most people. But do you think comments like these are acceptable from members of the Conservative party? We've already agreed they dont belong there, but confirming this based on what you said.

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anonymous said:

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You never asked me what I think about Brexit now, only what I voted. Right now my stance is that I want Brexit done and out of the way. One of the reasons i voted remain (apart from the far right propaganda) was because the city of london is about 11-14% of the total UK tax take, and I didn't want to see that move to other EU juristictions. Since then this hasn't really happened, and Bojo's revised brexit plan includes passporting rights across the EU, which means the city of London might keep it's financial district edge.

Why did you vote the way you did in Brexit?

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Troubleatmill said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

fesuvious said:

I still don't see how being a Muslim equates.

If you're 'muslim' , in loose descriptive term, like many other identities such as, obviously, Christians that give not two figs for bible teachings and who haven't set foot in a church for any other reason than a mates wedding. Then being 'muslim' doesn't come into it.

I doubt the Christian example above would say to themselves 'as a Christian how should I vote'.

So, you must be putting faith first?
.

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification.

The point of a religion (or any overarching system, really) is that it doesn't sit at a defined point in a hierarchy of priorities for decision making. You don't think Economy, Health, WWJD, transport.

It operates in a broader sense, causing you to analyse each decision in a different way. So of course when it comes to voting you are going to look at the different choices in a way which reflects this.

You can't put it first or second.

I did mention it above....

As a devotee of :
1/ The Flying Spaghetti Monster - how should I vote?
2/ The Chocolate Flying Teapot - how should I vote?
3/ The Wee Free Kirk of Scotland - how should I vote?
4/ Whatever Arse Gravy religion the one true Sky Fairy thought best to tell the whole of humanity through some dumb feckwit in the certainty - that unbelievers would be converted before the end of their lifetime.?

I stand by the premise that if you vote based on your religious brainwashing - there is something wrong with your thinking.

Unless you are a real exception - the only reason you believe in Sky Fairy stuff is because your parents were indoctrinated into it - and they did the same to you. Rinse and repeat up the generations.

It is so ludicrous that if I was elected PM - and I stated to all you Sky Fairy types that I am basing my decisions on the fact I have Flower Fairies in my garden - and they are guiding me.

They are no less legitimate than your Sky Fairy. Mine just sits on Daisies.

Nice monologue. What does that have to do with tory members or some brexiteers being overtly prejudiced against a certain group?

Next you'll be telling me that labour doesn't have a problem with anti semitism.

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Rover620ti said:

Interesting thread. I am of a similar background but you won't ever catch me voting for the conservatives. I am not one for pulling the ladder up behind me. You make an interesting point regarding the Brexit vote. Something that sticks with me is that on the morning of the announcement I got asked more than once by regular customer's when I would be going back home. I am not one to get emotional but that hurt. These were people I respected and who I had known for years. I was fortunate enough to be born here as was my father but 'that' element of brexiteers is hard to ignore.

There are so many examples online and of people I know that have had similar experiences. Brexit seems to have emboldened people to be outwardly racist. Maybe the views were always there, but brexit gave them the confidence to voice it.