Voting as a muslim

[Troubleatmill]

s1962a said:

Gary C said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

Not sure if you actually read my original opening post, or whether you followed this thread, but i made it quite clear that the tories speak my language - I don't want a socialist labour government, and i'd like brexit to be over with. But the finger pointing in the tory ranks, and their supposed alliances or turning a blind eye to racists within their party doesn't help. Couple that with the increase in racist attacks since Brexit, anti semitism within Labour (i had no idea how bad this was as it doesn't affect me directly) - it makes for a pretty toxic culture in some of the parties.

Not voting is not an option for me.

Doesn't matter which party you vote for - There will always be a minority of Candidates/ Members of that party that are nasty pieces of work. Look at the latest Libdem candidate who has a distaste for Jews.

Just vote for the party you think will run the country well.

[Not-The-Messiah]

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

If you use your argument against the conservatives, and do the same with Islam it will not go well.

Your argument is that because a few Tory members are possibly abusive to Muslims that say a lot about the conservatives as a hole.

So what does it say about Islam with the stuff some members of that group gets up to?

The fact is the is no official stance within the conservatives that is anti Muslim nothing written down in a manifesto and no key figures saying it.
Where as if Islam was a political party it would be band as a hate group. It as a written manifesto that incites violence and hatred to others and some key figures calling for such things.

[s1962a]

Troubleatmill said:

s1962a said:

Gary C said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

Its odd isnt it.

I would argue with you that your faith is wrong and a delusional system, but I would argue even more against people abusing you for that faith.

I dont think abuse is solely the province of the Conservative party, but equally, I dont think it should be excused or ignored.

However 'Voting as a muslim', why is that even a thing for discussion.

Just vote or don't. Your choice.

Not sure if you actually read my original opening post, or whether you followed this thread, but i made it quite clear that the tories speak my language - I don't want a socialist labour government, and i'd like brexit to be over with. But the finger pointing in the tory ranks, and their supposed alliances or turning a blind eye to racists within their party doesn't help. Couple that with the increase in racist attacks since Brexit, anti semitism within Labour (i had no idea how bad this was as it doesn't affect me directly) - it makes for a pretty toxic culture in some of the parties.

Not voting is not an option for me.

Doesn't matter which party you vote for - There will always be a minority of Candidates/ Members of that party that are nasty pieces of work. Look at the latest Libdem candidate who has a distaste for Jews.

Just vote for the party you think will run the country well.

In my opinion that would be the Tories, given the labour manifesto. If the tories stick to their promises to actively root out racist elements within their ranks then thats good enough for me.

[s1962a]

Not-The-Messiah said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

If you use your argument against the conservatives, and do the same with Islam it will not go well.

Your argument is that because a few Tory members are possibly abusive to Muslims that say a lot about the conservatives as a hole.

So what does it say about Islam with the stuff some members of that group gets up to?

The fact is the is no official stance within the conservatives that is anti Muslim nothing written down in a manifesto and no key figures saying it.
Where as if Islam was a political party it would be band as a hate group. It as a written manifesto that incites violence and hatred to others and some key figures calling for such things.

Islamic extremism is abhorrent and I would gladly shop anyone i knew with any extremist views - I condemn it wholeheartedly.

What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Not-The-Messiah said:

If you use your argument against the conservatives, and do the same with Islam it will not go well.

Your argument is that because a few Tory members are possibly abusive to Muslims that say a lot about the conservatives as a hole.

So what does it say about Islam with the stuff some members of that group gets up to?

The fact is the is no official stance within the conservatives that is anti Muslim nothing written down in a manifesto and no key figures saying it.
Where as if Islam was a political party it would be band as a hate group. It as a written manifesto that incites violence and hatred to others and some key figures calling for such things.

Except that a major political party campaigning to become the government is quite rightly subject to a higher degree of scrutiny and held to higher standards than a minority religion.

[Digga]

s1962a said:

In my opinion that would be the Tories, given the labour manifesto. If the tories stick to their promises to actively root out racist elements within their ranks then thats good enough for me.

I agree. They have key ministers from a variety of religious/racial backgrounds who are very much part of the Tory establishment and very much unlikely to tolerate abuse. The cabinet feels to me to be pretty 'representative' of contemporary Britishness.

Racism has no place here. Full stop.

Religious hatred and religious extremism has no place here. As others have said similar, but certainly I am not religious personally but can understand and sympathise with those who are - I do 'get' it - and would defend an individuals rights to practice religion (or atheism for that matter) without interference from others.

[Troubleatmill]

s1962a said:

...........
What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

It is just me finding that an odd statement???
Either you condemn racists or not.

Their political affiliation is irrelevant.

Why not categorise by bald people?
Or left handed?
Or those with android phones?

[s1962a]

Troubleatmill said:

s1962a said:

...........
What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

It is just me finding that an odd statement???
Either you condemn racists or not.

Their political affiliation is irrelevant.

Why not categorise by bald people?
Or left handed?
Or those with android phones?

Thats a good point. I am not looking to vote for any far right parties who have racist views as part of their manifesto's. I'm specifically referring to the racist elements within the Tory party - and also the anti semitism within Labour which is shocking as well.

Would you condemn it? You can condemn all of racism if you prefer, but you haven't so far.

[R Mutt]

Agreed there are racists everywhere but it aggravates me that in an already polarised world, someone, in light of Labour anti-antisemitism, has thought 'OK what's the opposite of a Jew, oh yes a Muslim, if some of our opponents don't like them, that should cancel it out.'

Moreover it's their selective tolerance that amuses me.

[s1962a]

Digga said:

s1962a said:

In my opinion that would be the Tories, given the labour manifesto. If the tories stick to their promises to actively root out racist elements within their ranks then thats good enough for me.

I agree. They have key ministers from a variety of religious/racial backgrounds who are very much part of the Tory establishment and very much unlikely to tolerate abuse. The cabinet feels to me to be pretty 'representative' of contemporary Britishness.

Racism has no place here. Full stop.

Religious hatred and religious extremism has no place here. As others have said similar, but certainly I am not religious personally but can understand and sympathise with those who are - I do 'get' it - and would defend an individuals rights to practice religion (or atheism for that matter) without interference from others.

Yes exactly. i want my country to propser, and I do believe the tories are in the best place to do that. So weed out this bullst racism as much as possible.

[bitchstewie]

R Mutt said:

Agreed there are racists everywhere but it aggravates me that in an already polarised world, someone, in light of Labour anti-antisemitism, has thought 'OK what's the opposite of a Jew, oh yes a Muslim, if some of our opponents don't like them, that should cancel it out.'

Moreover it's their selective tolerance that amuses me.

Is that what's happened though?

Sajid Javid was one of the people calling for an inquiry into Islamophobia.

Do you really think he woke up one morning and thought "You know what will really help the Conservative Party image right now..."?

[Troubleatmill]

s1962a said:

Troubleatmill said:

s1962a said:

...........
What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

It is just me finding that an odd statement???
Either you condemn racists or not.

Their political affiliation is irrelevant.

Why not categorise by bald people?
Or left handed?
Or those with android phones?

Thats a good point. I am not looking to vote for any far right parties who have racist views as part of their manifesto's. I'm specifically referring to the racist elements within the Tory party - and also the anti semitism within Labour which is shocking as well.

Would you condemn it? You can condemn all of racism if you prefer, but you haven't so far.

Of course - Racism is abhorrent.
I condemn racists in the Tory party, SNP, Lib Dems, Labour, Plaid, DUP, Monster Raving Loony party, no political party etc etc.

[Not-The-Messiah]

s1962a said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

s1962a said:

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

If you use your argument against the conservatives, and do the same with Islam it will not go well.

Your argument is that because a few Tory members are possibly abusive to Muslims that say a lot about the conservatives as a hole.

So what does it say about Islam with the stuff some members of that group gets up to?

The fact is the is no official stance within the conservatives that is anti Muslim nothing written down in a manifesto and no key figures saying it.
Where as if Islam was a political party it would be band as a hate group. It as a written manifesto that incites violence and hatred to others and some key figures calling for such things.

Islamic extremism is abhorrent and I would gladly shop anyone i knew with any extremist views - I condemn it wholeheartedly.

What are you going to do about the racists within the Brexit ranks and the Tories - will you condemn them at least?

Of course I would condemn racists, I will say though I don't class people who criticise a religions their traditions and practices racist though. Perhaps intolerant but not racist.

So now the leaders of the conservative party as also condemned it, is that problem solved?

[s1962a]

Not-The-Messiah said:

So now the leaders of the conservative party as also condemned it, is that problem solved?

The fact they've suspended the racists is a really good sign. For me, an independent inquiry into it (which could happen after the election and brexit) would be fine for me but i know Boris won't do that as it might alienate some of the core Brexit support he has who share those views. I get it, it's quite logical, but I dont agree with it.

[Digga]

bhstewie said:

R Mutt said:

Agreed there are racists everywhere but it aggravates me that in an already polarised world, someone, in light of Labour anti-antisemitism, has thought 'OK what's the opposite of a Jew, oh yes a Muslim, if some of our opponents don't like them, that should cancel it out.'

Moreover it's their selective tolerance that amuses me.

Is that what's happened though?

Sajid Javid was one of the people calling for an inquiry into Islamophobia.

Do you really think he woke up one morning and thought "You know what will really help the Conservative Party image right now..."?

^Agreed.

I also think, Brexit and the GE are reasons why this has not, yet, been dealt with as publicly and fully as it needs to be. I hope and expect this to be resolved in the very near future.

[ChevyChase77]

Mothersruin said:

s1962a said:

Mothersruin said:

ChevyChase77 said:

RTB said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Christianity - many staunch Christians don't agree with homosexuality either.

Scientology is also a weird one. I'd certainly question many aspects of that. I guess that makes me anti-Scientology.....

Religion is nothing more than a man-made world view, it should be as open to criticism to any other man-made world view.

An atheist criticising the muslim world for it's rather retrograde attitudes to gender equality is a raving Islamophobe, same goes for a cartoonist who pokes a bit of fun at Mohammed. However a Sunni parking a truck full of explosives in a Shia market place isn't an Islamaphobe apparently.

Don't try to apply pragmatism, logic or common humanity it doesn't work.

Good post.

Agreed - religion is an idea - ideas are open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule - ideas that need to be enforced by violence and special exemptions/laws probably aren't the best of ideas in the first place.

Good post. But what does that have to do about abuse directed by tory members?

I think it's to do with elements conflating criticism of religion with 'simple' racism - the two are very different.

Yes. I haven't really done my homework in relation to why the Tories have an anti-Muslim tag. But I have seen people being labelled anti-Muslim for simply questioning outdated parts of their ideology. But then they would pull up anyone in the minority, religious or not that held bigoted views.

[s1962a]

Not-The-Messiah said:

Of course I would condemn racists, I will say though I don't class people who criticise a religions their traditions and practices racist though. Perhaps intolerant but not racist.

Thanks,I didn't want this to go unnoticed.

I agree with you. I have no problem with people criticising religious beliefs or practices, as should most people. But do you think comments like these are acceptable from members of the Conservative party? We've already agreed they dont belong there, but confirming this based on what you said.

[Keoparakolo]

ChevyChase77 said:

Yes. I haven't really done my homework in relation to why the Tories have an anti-Muslim tag. But I have seen people being labelled anti-Muslim for simply questioning outdated parts of their ideology. But then they would pull up anyone in the minority, religious or not that held bigoted views.

Not on this thread though, that’s just an attempt to deflect and point fingers elsewhere on something unrelated. The Tories and this anti-Muslim tag / Islamophobia / racism (call it what you like) has been explained by the OP in terms of his experiences and linked to with wider news, such as the suspensions of councillors / calls by Sajid Javid & Baroness Warsi to hold an independent inquiry, which is being constantly deferred.

[anonymous-user]

OP, considering that you've admitted you voted to remain (kinda puts things into context a little more) I think this'll make your choice even harder, if you decide to vote for the Lib Dems to revoke.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/18/lib-dem-candidate-s...
Just the tip of the iceberg? Jo Swinson should resign? Defectors should defect again?
Inquest to be held? The shame, the horror. Shame on all people who have anything to do with remain or revoke. Shame on the EU too!

[s1962a]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You never asked me what I think about Brexit now, only what I voted. Right now my stance is that I want Brexit done and out of the way. One of the reasons i voted remain (apart from the far right propaganda) was because the city of london is about 11-14% of the total UK tax take, and I didn't want to see that move to other EU juristictions. Since then this hasn't really happened, and Bojo's revised brexit plan includes passporting rights across the EU, which means the city of London might keep it's financial district edge.

Why did you vote the way you did in Brexit?